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locusf | morning | 07:08 |
---|---|---|
Stskeeps | morn locusf | 07:08 |
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Hard_Coretex | gitorius is closing down | 07:41 |
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sandy_locke | qwazix: I'm there for the day, sorry for the lack of news, something came up. Are you available at some point today ? | 11:41 |
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qwazix | sandy_locke, I will be available in about 2h if that's okay with you | 12:30 |
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sandy_locke | qwazix: ping | 14:48 |
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qwazix | pong | 14:49 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, pong | 14:59 |
sandy_locke | hi qwazix :-) | 15:00 |
sandy_locke | at last ;-) | 15:00 |
sandy_locke | so I wanted to do some icons today | 15:00 |
sandy_locke | if you've got time to talk guidelines et al ? | 15:01 |
qwazix | yeah, just need 10 minutes to finish sth. | 15:01 |
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sandy_locke | ok | 15:03 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, ready | 15:16 |
sandy_locke | yup | 15:16 |
sandy_locke | so are we going to keep the rounded style ? | 15:16 |
sandy_locke | and are we going to keep what's already done or begin from scratch ? | 15:17 |
qwazix | we'll keep what's already done | 15:17 |
qwazix | I'm happy with it and I've heard positive comments too | 15:17 |
qwazix | so application icons stay circlish | 15:18 |
qwazix | I'm also happy with the statusbar icons (your design IIRC) | 15:18 |
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qwazix | so I think we should make the guidelines fit the icons, not the other way around | 15:19 |
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sandy_locke | 1 or two icons were already made by hurrian I think | 15:21 |
sandy_locke | but ok, we keep what we got, and we continue this way | 15:21 |
sandy_locke | so as for the guideline, we begin with : circlish | 15:22 |
sandy_locke | do you have some place where I can see them ? I think the artwork repo is down, no ? | 15:22 |
qwazix | https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/master/statusbar/statusbar_icons.png | 15:23 |
sandy_locke | and the homescreen's | 15:23 |
sandy_locke | ? | 15:23 |
qwazix | http://nemomobile.github.io/#iconography | 15:23 |
qwazix | first of all, there are two kinds of icons in nemo, right? | 15:24 |
sandy_locke | I see that you modified the statusbar icons, I like it -) | 15:24 |
sandy_locke | :-) | 15:24 |
qwazix | application icons: full color, circlish | 15:25 |
sandy_locke | and system ones | 15:25 |
sandy_locke | monochrome | 15:25 |
sandy_locke | ? | 15:25 |
qwazix | yeah, or duotoned | 15:25 |
sandy_locke | ok | 15:25 |
qwazix | I only changed the gps one i think | 15:25 |
qwazix | which is less accurate than before, but it's cleaner\ | 15:26 |
sandy_locke | the charger icons are more rounded also | 15:27 |
qwazix | the application icons guidelines are pretty good, suggestions for improvement always welcome, but I think they convey the message | 15:27 |
qwazix | maybe I tweaked those too, I don't remember | 15:27 |
sandy_locke | play should be more rounded then, it stands out as it is | 15:28 |
qwazix | yeah, why not. | 15:29 |
sandy_locke | there are some icons I dislike though | 15:29 |
sandy_locke | for apps | 15:29 |
qwazix | as long as it is obvious it's a play icon | 15:29 |
sandy_locke | the settings one, the video one are not vivid enough | 15:30 |
qwazix | there are some that could use some improvement yeah | 15:30 |
sandy_locke | I think use of some sort of "classic" grey should be avoided | 15:30 |
qwazix | I like settings, I agree with you on videos | 15:30 |
sandy_locke | it's the grey on settings that bothers me | 15:31 |
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qwazix | try changing it, if you find something you like better, we can discuss it | 15:32 |
sandy_locke | ok I'll look into it | 15:32 |
qwazix | maybe swap the gear colors | 15:32 |
sandy_locke | yeah that's what I was thinking | 15:33 |
sandy_locke | the "surf" icon is kind of 90ish | 15:33 |
qwazix | documents could use some improvement too, but anyway, (a) we don't have a documents app yet and (b) I'd prefer to have the system icons first and then finetune the apps | 15:34 |
sandy_locke | yeah that's a better approach I agree | 15:34 |
sandy_locke | in the list of icons, I put documents as a system app, maybe it should be fixed | 15:35 |
sandy_locke | btw did you upload the list somewhere , | 15:35 |
sandy_locke | ? | 15:35 |
qwazix | also keep in mind that we might end up using a third party app as default, and we might want to use their icon | 15:36 |
sandy_locke | ok | 15:36 |
qwazix | ehm, no, let me do it right now | 15:36 |
sandy_locke | something that bother me globally, is that some icons are minimalist, and other are detailed | 15:36 |
sandy_locke | there's not enough consistency when you look at them like this | 15:37 |
sandy_locke | i.e: files or packages against people or music for instance | 15:37 |
sandy_locke | to name just them | 15:38 |
sandy_locke | it would have been good to stick with one or the other ? | 15:38 |
qwazix | https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Glacier/Icons | 15:41 |
qwazix | my method was "as simple as possible as long as it is recognisable" | 15:43 |
qwazix | for example I tried making a circular folder look like a folder, for "files" but it wasn't clear enough | 15:44 |
qwazix | on the other hand, remember that app icons will be mixed with app icons, which usually aren't so strictly consistent | 15:45 |
sandy_locke | yeah, but then minimalist icons should play more on gradients don't you think ? | 15:45 |
locusf | nice to see designer talk here :) | 15:45 |
qwazix | locusf, :) | 15:45 |
sandy_locke | o/ locusf | 15:46 |
locusf | hey qwazix sandy_locke :) | 15:46 |
locusf | what do you guys think about our desktop targets? | 15:46 |
locusf | "desktop" | 15:46 |
sandy_locke | locusf: what is it ? | 15:47 |
locusf | sandy_locke: rpi2 and minnowmax | 15:47 |
qwazix | locusf, could be a very nice, easy to develop for, touch friendly kiosk OS | 15:48 |
sandy_locke | what ? To have a desktop version of nemo ? Like a responsive nemo ? | 15:48 |
locusf | qwazix: +1 | 15:48 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, that's a dream I've been having since a long time | 15:48 |
sandy_locke | I'm all in :-) | 15:48 |
sandy_locke | it would be really great | 15:49 |
qwazix | but we gotta first make the phone edition more complete | 15:49 |
locusf | yep | 15:49 |
locusf | just a starrt though | 15:49 |
sandy_locke | well, if nemo will eventually get into this, better think about implementations now | 15:49 |
sandy_locke | afterwards it will be a nightmare to adapt everything for desktop, no ? | 15:50 |
qwazix | In my opinion rough roadmap is: (of course anyone works on what fancies but this is what I believe is best for user adoption) | 15:50 |
qwazix | 1. ship usable sailfish home replacement app, easy to install and all, cover actions, everything | 15:50 |
qwazix | 2. make redistributable sdk, or sailfish sdk addon for glacier | 15:51 |
qwazix | 3. choose an android device as reference and ship images | 15:51 |
qwazix | 4. move to tablets, decide multi-window behavior and implementation | 15:52 |
qwazix | 5. too far in the future | 15:52 |
locusf | for 3 we already have many candidates | 15:53 |
locusf | 1. needs setup work for glacier homescreen like moving binaries qnd proper uninstallation, coverr actions tricky as they are proprietary to jolla | 15:54 |
locusf | 4. completely doable if android, even more so for Jolla tablet | 15:54 |
sandy_locke | for 1. you need not to just make a sailfish clone | 15:54 |
locusf | I see a lot of things to do | 15:55 |
locusf | but all within good range of doability | 15:55 |
sandy_locke | I pledged for the tablet, so I will be happy to alpha test :-) | 15:55 |
locusf | sandy_locke: have you tried glacier on jolla? | 15:55 |
locusf | homescreen | 15:55 |
sandy_locke | no I don't own a Jolla yet | 15:55 |
locusf | ah | 15:55 |
sandy_locke | I wait for v2 | 15:55 |
locusf | ok well tablet should also have the homescreen completely replaceable | 15:56 |
sandy_locke | I bought one for my sister in law, but she is no geek at all and want a working device (in case I brick it) | 15:56 |
sandy_locke | I like the roadmap anyway, I'm eager to see it become a full fledged OSS OS :-) | 15:57 |
qwazix | locusf, okay, cover actions we can do without anyway | 15:59 |
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sandy_locke | I'll have a kiosk in my shop sooner or later, maybe I'll see with the kiosk engineer if he let me install nemo when it's ready ;-) | 15:59 |
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sandy_locke | qwazix: locusf: didn't we have specs for a similar stuff in store ? | 16:01 |
qwazix | http://piratepad.net/z464u3PhMn | 16:01 |
sandy_locke | I think I remember kind of an action based MT screen | 16:01 |
sandy_locke | nice qwazix :-) | 16:02 |
locusf | qwazix: sorry if I interrupted you, did you have something more? | 16:05 |
qwazix | locusf, I don't think so, things will change until step 4 anyway | 16:13 |
locusf | qwazix: ok | 16:14 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, locusf let's discuss the location icon for a sec | 16:14 |
qwazix | we have multiple states | 16:14 |
sandy_locke | qwazix: like gps ? | 16:14 |
qwazix | 1. location off | 16:14 |
qwazix | 2. location on, gps reqested, no fix | 16:15 |
qwazix | 3. location on, wifi only | 16:15 |
qwazix | 4. location on, gps requested, no gps fix, wifi "fix" | 16:16 |
qwazix | we can do one icon with 4 states, or two seperate icons | 16:16 |
M4rtinK | you might also have a 2D and 3D fix ;-) | 16:16 |
sandy_locke | it's better to keep one emblem that represent gps all the time | 16:17 |
qwazix | M4rtinK, I think that's too much info for the status bar | 16:17 |
sandy_locke | i mean location | 16:17 |
M4rtinK | and assisted/cold start GPS | 16:17 |
M4rtinK | Glonass/GPS :) | 16:17 |
M4rtinK | sure, just a note :) | 16:17 |
M4rtinK | those 4 look like the important ones | 16:18 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, I'm kind of leaning towards two icons as gps is a battery killer and I'd like to know when it's on | 16:18 |
sandy_locke | is it possible to have a frame surrounding location+wifi icons when only wifi ? | 16:18 |
sandy_locke | like, those two are always side by side when on | 16:19 |
sandy_locke | and if location is wifi only, a frame surronds them or anything like that | 16:19 |
sandy_locke | if it is technically feasible, it's the easiest to understand imho | 16:20 |
qwazix | if we use a monochrome version of the maps icon (i.e. a map point) when location is on (wi-fi) and the dish antenna icon when gps is on? This would take only one place in the status bar | 16:20 |
qwazix | though it won't be clear whether gps is just on or actually has a fix | 16:20 |
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sandy_locke | what's a fix ? | 16:21 |
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qwazix | M4rtinK, ^ I'm sure you're going to explain this better than me | 16:21 |
M4rtinK | that usually means that the gps system was able to pinpoint your coordinates with a reasonable accuracy | 16:23 |
sandy_locke | thx M4rtinK | 16:23 |
M4rtinK | eq. it got enough data from the GPS satelites to find where you are | 16:23 |
sandy_locke | ok I understand now | 16:24 |
sandy_locke | I was thinking about blinking icon until fix | 16:24 |
M4rtinK | that's hot is is usually done | 16:24 |
M4rtinK | *how | 16:24 |
sandy_locke | yup, that's why | 16:24 |
qwazix | so "map pin", "dish antenna", "blue dish antenna" | 16:24 |
M4rtinK | maybe turning compass ? :) | 16:24 |
sandy_locke | no learning curve ;-) | 16:25 |
M4rtinK | blue dish antenna == Bluetooth ? :) | 16:25 |
qwazix | bluetooth is the B like here https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/master/statusbar/statusbar_icons.png | 16:25 |
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qwazix | so it's pretty obvious it isn't that | 16:26 |
M4rtinK | BTW, from technical perspective a dish antenna is nonsense - your device and even the GPS satellite has no such thing :) | 16:26 |
qwazix | yeah I know | 16:26 |
M4rtinK | but we still see floppies in UIs so... | 16:26 |
qwazix | but it's instantly recognizable imho | 16:26 |
M4rtinK | qwazix: but what if bluetooth is disabled ? :) | 16:26 |
qwazix | I like the turning compass idea though | 16:26 |
sandy_locke | M4rtinK: because common people think gps==tv antena | 16:27 |
sandy_locke | no sorry satellite==tv antenna | 16:27 |
qwazix | M4rtinK, our status bar icons are always shown (since the status bar isn't always visible) | 16:27 |
qwazix | so the icon will always be there | 16:27 |
M4rtinK | ah, ok | 16:27 |
M4rtinK | well my idea is to convey "coordinates/location/navigation" rather than a specific location method (GPS) | 16:28 |
qwazix | anyway, I'd go for any instantly recognizable gps icon. It's just that the old one we had was too complicated | 16:28 |
sandy_locke | +1 for turning compass, but it means another icon to memorize | 16:28 |
M4rtinK | as it break down once you add wifi/BTS positioning | 16:28 |
sandy_locke | for end users | 16:28 |
M4rtinK | just an idea :) | 16:28 |
qwazix | M4rtinK, the point is I'd like to show when gps chip is on as it's a battery sucker | 16:28 |
M4rtinK | sure | 16:29 |
M4rtinK | WiFi positioning is a serious privacy hazard :) | 16:30 |
qwazix | yeah, also that | 16:30 |
sandy_locke | although we could also use the old icon as it would be a good fix indicator: antenna turn into satellite | 16:30 |
sandy_locke | i.e : connected | 16:30 |
qwazix | I still can't think anything better and self explanatory than "map pin", "dish antenna", "blue dish antenna" | 16:31 |
qwazix | I like compass very much but it doesn't immediately convey the method: imagine map pin, turning compass, compass | 16:31 |
sandy_locke | although white dish antenna could also mean GPS turned off in settings... | 16:32 |
qwazix | would you instantly recognize why map pin turned into compass? | 16:32 |
M4rtinK | http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant ! :D | 16:32 |
sandy_locke | M4rtinK: I actually thought about that when designing the first icon ;-) | 16:32 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, you are right and android already suffers from this problem, but I think that off should be faded like wifi off currently | 16:33 |
sandy_locke | mmh, nice qwazix so we should add this fourth icon in the specs | 16:33 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, M4rtinK what about if we repurpose the nfc icon for gps? | 16:34 |
sandy_locke | like a semi transparent dish antenna | 16:34 |
qwazix | nfc already has a logo http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/NFC-N-Mark-Logo.png | 16:34 |
sandy_locke | qwazix: I don't like the idea, this for nfc is self-explenatory imho since it convey the idea of quick close connection | 16:35 |
sandy_locke | qwazix: as you wish, but this logo need redesign to fit with our other system icons | 16:36 |
qwazix | unfortunately I don't think we can modify it (just like bluetooth) as it's a trademark | 16:36 |
qwazix | but on the other hand having the standard icons helps usability enormously | 16:37 |
sandy_locke | all our icons are round(ed), this one is squircle-ish | 16:37 |
sandy_locke | if you look BT/NFC/GPS, they are consistent, and what you propose would break that | 16:38 |
sandy_locke | (if we cannot modify it) | 16:38 |
qwazix | we'll put it in a circle of course | 16:38 |
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qwazix | btw, ignore the rounded square | 16:39 |
qwazix | the N mark is the actual logo i think | 16:39 |
qwazix | let me make sure | 16:39 |
sandy_locke | ok then, we can do that, we did it for BT anyway | 16:39 |
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sandy_locke | do we have a screenshot with the new statusbar icons ? (homescreen screenshot) | 16:41 |
qwazix | I think there is one floating around | 16:42 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, https://openrepos.net/sites/default/files/packages/2180/screenshot-20140619144848.jpg | 16:42 |
qwazix | this has the previous gps icon | 16:43 |
qwazix | no, the n-mark has the rounded rectangle included, you can't use only it's negative | 16:44 |
qwazix | brb | 16:44 |
sandy_locke | arf, I wanted to see the new gps and battery ones | 16:47 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, I'm not sure they are implemented | 16:50 |
sandy_locke | ok | 16:50 |
qwazix | anyway, let's sleep on this for the moment | 16:51 |
sandy_locke | qwazix: anyway I think the GPS icon is good as it is | 16:51 |
sandy_locke | it fits with the others and is understandable | 16:51 |
qwazix | we agree that we need four states off/wifi/gps-nofix/gps-fix | 16:51 |
sandy_locke | and the 4 states you proposed are interesting | 16:51 |
sandy_locke | yes | 16:52 |
qwazix | the actual icons are still TBD | 16:52 |
sandy_locke | so we have: semi-transparent, pin, white, blue | 16:52 |
sandy_locke | ? | 16:52 |
qwazix | yeah I like this | 16:54 |
qwazix | see pirate pad | 16:54 |
qwazix | I'm setting up system icon states | 16:54 |
sandy_locke | I like the idea of these 4 states since it overcomes a common nerving issue with smartphones | 16:55 |
sandy_locke | more transparency too :-) | 16:55 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, we have to indicate focus with something else though | 16:56 |
sandy_locke | wait, phone sorry | 16:56 |
sandy_locke | brb | 16:56 |
qwazix | kk | 16:56 |
qwazix | http://play.qwazix.com/shared/tmp_statusbar_focus.png | 17:07 |
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sandy_locke | qwazix: ping | 17:21 |
sandy_locke | I liked the gsm icon better with less radius | 17:23 |
sandy_locke | it was better fitted with the bottom of the wifi icon | 17:24 |
sandy_locke | (although there's no radius there, maybe we should add one) | 17:25 |
qwazix | I just wanted to show that we should do a tab-like focus indicator instead of using blue, now that blue is used for "special" state | 17:26 |
sandy_locke | yes you're right | 17:26 |
qwazix | (we could add some roundness to the wifi icon too though) | 17:26 |
sandy_locke | and it fits nicely as you speced it | 17:26 |
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qwazix | it won't be as clear with dark wallpapers though | 17:27 |
sandy_locke | (yes that's what I was talking about) | 17:27 |
sandy_locke | it should be as you specced : same color/grey as the pane that slides up | 17:27 |
qwazix | yeah | 17:28 |
sandy_locke | so if pane is semi-trans, icon background should be too | 17:28 |
sandy_locke | don't remember if we defined opacity for the pane | 17:28 |
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qwazix | it's semitransparent yeah, ~90% | 17:29 |
qwazix | I got to go now, feel free to edit the piratepad with more icons. I will create a github repo for system icons so that we can work with the usual pull requests. | 17:31 |
sandy_locke | nice, just email me the repo if you can | 17:31 |
sandy_locke | I'll keep the pad in my bookmarks | 17:32 |
sandy_locke | right now, I'll make a pause since I had a rough day and my head will explode at some point :-P | 17:32 |
qwazix | ok | 17:33 |
qwazix | we have to decide about licensing too at some point | 17:34 |
qwazix | I will leave it as none for the time being. I'm favoring GPL but I don't know if it is suited for artwork like icons. | 17:34 |
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locusf | cc4 would work | 17:35 |
sandy_locke | yeah I believe creative commons are most suited | 17:35 |
locusf | by&sa | 17:35 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-system-icons | 17:35 |
locusf | we probably don't want nc? | 17:36 |
qwazix | I need to pester someone to add me to nemomobile organization on github so that I can move those repos | 17:36 |
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sandy_locke | qwazix: cloned localy :-) | 17:36 |
qwazix | locusf, no we don't want nc. It doesn't even classify as free software then. | 17:37 |
locusf | yes | 17:37 |
sandy_locke | commercial use is ~ | 17:37 |
sandy_locke | not because we did work on it, but because we'd like it to stay open and free, don't you think ? | 17:38 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, I'm thinking no folders, everything dumped in root, layers inside svg file for states, no png's and we could write a nice script to export pngs after the fact | 17:39 |
sandy_locke | if we script it, we should have all icons the same canvas size, and padding between states also the same | 17:40 |
qwazix | yeah | 17:40 |
sandy_locke | like this the script can iterate horizontally until there's no more canvas to export | 17:41 |
qwazix | one change: no states, we will use an svg property to mark things that should be blue/white and do the states with a script too, so that we can change color schemes easily down the road | 17:41 |
sandy_locke | mmmh, how you do that ? with inkscape ? | 17:42 |
qwazix | sandy_locke, hmm, maybe that would be nice too, all icons in same svg file | 17:42 |
sandy_locke | ah you do that with the script ok | 17:42 |
qwazix | you can do it externally with js or else | 17:42 |
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sandy_locke | nice, I'll let you make the first two canvas into the file ? Since you must have a better idea of how the script would work ? | 17:43 |
qwazix | it's better to keep different icons in seperate svg files now that I think about it, less conflicts to merge if two people work on different icons | 17:44 |
qwazix | and nicer git history | 17:44 |
qwazix | (though a bit harder to work with many windows open) | 17:44 |
qwazix | ok I'll do that | 17:44 |
sandy_locke | defendable | 17:44 |
sandy_locke | so no state ? only one icon by file in one canvas ? | 17:45 |
qwazix | yes | 17:46 |
sandy_locke | ok | 17:46 |
qwazix | I'll make a quick guide on how to mark paths for state change with inkscape later | 17:47 |
sandy_locke | ok thx, so I'll have to use inkscape ;-) | 17:47 |
sandy_locke | (not so used to it, but it will be fun anyway) | 17:48 |
qwazix | you'll have to use it at least for marking the paths that change color | 17:48 |
qwazix | (except if you prefer to do it with a text editor, that's also possible) | 17:48 |
sandy_locke | yeah but if we have to put the icon in a specific place on the canvas, I can't use a software that risk to break the positioning | 17:48 |
qwazix | not now, no | 17:49 |
qwazix | that would be the case if we had multiple icons on the canvas | 17:49 |
sandy_locke | ok then | 17:49 |
qwazix | now we don't really care about the position | 17:49 |
qwazix | just the size | 17:49 |
sandy_locke | yeah, all we want is replace white or whatever with accent color | 17:50 |
qwazix | (we could also use a "magic" color but that's a hack) | 17:50 |
qwazix | I prefer if we use svg attributes | 17:50 |
sandy_locke | (don't know about it) | 17:51 |
qwazix | bye for now, have a good rest | 17:51 |
sandy_locke | thx, good evening you too | 17:51 |
sandy_locke | see ya | 17:51 |
qwazix | \o | 17:51 |
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locusf | ok see you sandy_locke | 18:00 |
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