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| lpotter | \0/ | 01:17 |
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| locusf | good morning :) | 05:58 |
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| iekku | locusf, morning | 06:09 |
| iekku | locusf, good one | 06:09 |
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| iekku | locusf, ques how many times i had to write coffee before i got it right.. | 06:24 |
| iekku | 3 times | 06:24 |
| locusf | iekku: it happens to the best of us :) | 06:24 |
| iekku | :) | 06:26 |
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| faenil | I have only 2Mb in download atm :( | 08:31 |
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| ryukafalz | Is the plan still to replicate Sailfish QML component APIs so that existing applications require little modification for Glacier? | 22:58 |
| ryukafalz | s/Sailfish/Silica | 22:58 |
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| M4rtinK | ryukafalz: not really what you want, but related: https://github.com/M4rtinK/universal-components | 23:19 |
| M4rtinK | it has Silica and Controls backends | 23:20 |
| M4rtinK | and might have a Glacier one in the future | 23:20 |
| M4rtinK | you write your app against it and it should work & look fine on all platforms that have at least one of the backends :) | 23:20 |
| artemma | If Sailfish is pretty much nemo+Sailfish components + launcher, you might be able to run nemo apps on jolla phones just fine, right? | 23:21 |
| ryukafalz | M4rtinK: Oh dang that's actually really cool. Doesn't do anything for existing apps, but well... yeah. | 23:21 |
| ryukafalz | artemma: You can, yes, but not the other way around | 23:21 |
| M4rtinK | ryukafalz: one nice use case is testing | 23:22 |
| ryukafalz | Sailfish apps don't run on devices without Silica (Sailfish) components | 23:22 |
| M4rtinK | using this I can run modRana on desktop just fine | 23:22 |
| M4rtinK | which is much quicker than running it on Sailfish all the time | 23:22 |
| ryukafalz | yet again I must applaud you for modRana haha | 23:22 |
| ryukafalz | since now it lead to this :P | 23:22 |
| M4rtinK | thanks! :) | 23:23 |
| M4rtinK | I just basically just dislike how every platform has a compulsive need to make their own incompatible component set | 23:23 |
| ryukafalz | what would be really cool is if Silica, Glacier, and QQC had unified component APIs | 23:23 |
| ryukafalz | yeah | 23:23 |
| M4rtinK | Nemo is also guilty of this BTW | 23:23 |
| M4rtinK | and on Sailfish - if they would be sane, Silica would be open and the defacto standard component set for mobile devices | 23:24 |
| M4rtinK | but well, no, that would be too simple :) | 23:24 |
| ryukafalz | well, of course :P | 23:24 |
| M4rtinK | well, anyway no way I'm going to remake my UI for each platform - and worst of all - keep those code bases in sync forever ! | 23:25 |
| M4rtinK | so that's why we have universal components :) | 23:25 |
| ryukafalz | can understand the branding aspect of it, but I don't like that that results in app incompatibilities like it does | 23:25 |
| M4rtinK | I think just using Controls with some custom theme would be the best short term solution | 23:26 |
| M4rtinK | for Nemo | 23:26 |
| M4rtinK | or even standardizing on the port of old MeeGo Qt Components | 23:26 |
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| ryukafalz | Agreed, and I've heard that discussed in here before | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | making a custom component set when most of the distro is barely working (if at all) seems a little too ambitious :) | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | well, that's just my opinion :) | 23:28 |
| ryukafalz | but the fact that Silica is quickly becoming the de facto component set I feel requires looking into | 23:28 |
| M4rtinK | I just don't like needless roadblock to cross platform compatibility :) | 23:28 |
| * ryukafalz nods | 23:28 | |
| Oksana | Monopoly is too simple. There are: GTK, Qt, QML... Inside Qt, there are: Silica, Glacier... Ideally, there would be enough separation and compatibility between different layers-pieces of operating system that it would be possible to construct anything you like. Simplest example: any chess-gui with any chess-engine. | 23:29 |
| artemma | well, chess is pretty much an exception where app is algorithm-intensive (non-visual part is significant part of experience) and large part of UI is unified (same board) | 23:31 |
| artemma | a lot (most?) of other mobile apps are way more UI intensive. Even simple notepads can look significantly differently using different platform concepts | 23:31 |
| artemma | e.g. iOS expects two actions most, Android is fine with some 4-7 view menu items | 23:32 |
| Oksana | Well, there are different kinds of boards (8x8, 8x10, 10x10), different sets of rules, different number of players (two, three...)... There are even 3D chess, sometimes. Hexagonal chess. | 23:32 |
| artemma | that sounds like talking about different topic to me now :) | 23:33 |
| M4rtinK | well, even though I try to keep most of the logic in the UI independent application core | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | a proper GUI is still a significant codebase | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | while it would probably not be too difficult to port to a slightly different component set once | 23:36 |
| M4rtinK | modRana is developed incrementally so maintaining all the separate GUI forks would get bad very quickly :) | 23:37 |
| Oksana | Heh... Why not just expose 'standard' functions (such as Open, Save, Exit), and keep the GUI the same for all apps? | 23:37 |
| artemma | QML promise used to be not cross-platform UI, but UI so easy to create and throw-away, that it should be simple for one to recreate the UI for the next platform | 23:38 |
| artemma | Oksana: possibly because some platforms do not have Save and Exit and other conceps? ;) | 23:38 |
| artemma | Seriously speaking though the real source for cross-platform troubles are two: platform differences are way higher conceptually than between desktops and *significantly* higher quality expectations from consumers | 23:39 |
| artemma | somewhat not native looking dsktop app can do fine, on mobile.. possibly won't even get started the second time | 23:40 |
| Oksana | No wonder many people choose command line. It remains the same on all platforms. | 23:40 |
| * artemma uses command line a lot, yet to see these new hordes of "many people" though | 23:41 | |
| artemma | though I am an app guy with a particular love to mobiles, so my perspective on consumer preferences can be different from average people on linux-oriented IRC channel :) | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: yeah, that what I was referring to - the "throwaway" GUI method works only for apps that are more or less static | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | say a simple calculator | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | simple todo list, etc. | 23:43 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: I know, creating ral cool UI for a significantly sized app is a big challenge even without cross-platform headaches | 23:43 |
| artemma | real cool* | 23:43 |
| M4rtinK | you make it with a classic waterfall development, then it is done and you can start throwing together all the various throw away GUIs | 23:43 |
| M4rtinK | as it won't ever change | 23:43 |
| M4rtinK | but that's not applicable for any app that significantly changes over time | 23:44 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, UI design is often quite hard | 23:45 |
| M4rtinK | and sometimes there is also no good solution as different users have different personal preferences :) | 23:45 |
| artemma | well, if I was to create app for a couple of platforms myself, I could also go for a cross-platform UI solution. That would have, however, been a clear tradeoff between user benefit and amount of maintenance needed | 23:45 |
| artemma | maintenance simplicity likely to win | 23:46 |
| M4rtinK | it depends what your objective is :) | 23:46 |
| * artemma actually did it at some point with a couple of Qt apps running on Symbian-Meego-Android from same source code | 23:46 | |
| M4rtinK | eq, hobby project/taking over the world of open source navigations VS making money with nice native looking apps :) | 23:47 |
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| M4rtinK | I never got why the Symbian Qt Components needed to be different :) | 23:47 |
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| artemma | and certainly there can be app-specific super clever solutions. Can't bring an example, but I can imagine some real clever remapping of Android app UI into iOS one so that same inner components would be just rearranged differently with a tiny bit of platform-specific wrapping-styling | 23:48 |
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| artemma | IMHO, symbian components were different only because different team was doing them. And they tried to be very similar to general ones, almosrt succeeded | 23:49 |
| artemma | Hmm, actually my daytime job ThingLink app just got a couple of new features released that have virtually same conceptual look on Android/iOS yet clearly follow local standards | 23:51 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, thp recently managed to get my Qt5 & Python 3 Android efforts into a usable state :) | 23:51 |
| artemma | e.g. icon chooser is same selection grid, but full screen on iPhone, while a standard dialog on Android | 23:51 |
| M4rtinK | so now I have a testing version of modRana running on my Android tablet (using UC with the Controlls backend ;-) ) ahd thps gPodder is already in the play store :) | 23:51 |
| artemma | good! | 23:52 |
| M4rtinK | *and | 23:52 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, this was actually planed for UC from the beginning | 23:52 |
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| M4rtinK | not just desktop & testing on desktop, but to run on platforms without Silica :) | 23:52 |
| artemma | gut | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, Android UX | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | I kinda thing there is no single one | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | I get the feeling every app looks the different | 23:53 |
| artemma | Oksana could do chess with the same approach :) | 23:53 |
| artemma | Until lately Android was a very good case Qt exactly because all apps were anyway different, so Qt style was no worse | 23:54 |
| M4rtinK | the only "common" component seems to be "application stopped responding dialog", but most probably not on purpose :D | 23:54 |
| artemma | it all changes with "material design" now | 23:54 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, right | 23:54 |
| artemma | well, changes started coming slowly since Android 4.3, 4.3 and Material design is a quality step now | 23:54 |
| M4rtinK | not like all apps are targetting Android 4.0+ or even 2.3+ anyway :) | 23:55 |
| artemma | Qt's controls are BTW not quite ready for it me thinks | 23:55 |
| M4rtinK | and will be for years to come :) | 23:55 |
| artemma | Material design can run on 4.0 fine | 23:55 |
| artemma | some effects get simplified - e.g. no shadows and round corners for cards | 23:55 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC there is some Android theming for Controls in Qt 5.4 | 23:56 |
| artemma | Google's compatibility libs become better and better | 23:56 |
| M4rtinK | might be related | 23:56 |
| M4rtinK | well, I rather wonder how it still even works with all those layers of cruft layered on top of each other :D | 23:57 |
| artemma | slowly of course :) | 23:57 |
| M4rtinK | I recommend reading some of the CLI input of the Android SDK/NDK tools | 23:57 |
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| M4rtinK | how it enables and disables various hacks according to the current API level, etc. :) | 23:58 |
| artemma | Me recalls one other conceptually different UI feature between Android and iOS: search (we have just implemented it for ThingLink apps lately) | 23:58 |
| M4rtinK | or how various projects building for Android tell you to use an exact NDK version that is known to work | 23:58 |
| M4rtinK | even though it should all officially be binary compatible :) | 23:59 |
| artemma | Android expects categories and "show more" for each one and result cards with actions attached, while iOS needs simple single list, with subsections only if you *really* want these | 23:59 |
| M4rtinK | and lots and lots of other "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING????" moments :) | 23:59 |
| artemma | try cloning it with some standard search results component | 23:59 |
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