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| sledges | morniin | 07:05 |
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| faenil | moo | 07:49 |
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| stephg | moo0000ooo | 09:18 |
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| sledges | stephg: we're at #mer-meeting atm :) | 09:22 |
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| stephg | sledges thx, not at my desk much this morning | 09:38 |
| stephg | :( | 09:38 |
| sledges | nprobs :) | 09:42 |
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| locusf | I was out on town | 10:49 |
| sledges | for the nemoers is to decide the fate of bugs.nemomobile.org | 10:51 |
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| locusf | oh | 10:55 |
| SK_work | ah ? | 10:59 |
| sledges | after nemo->mer merge | 10:59 |
| bencoh | so it happened eventually ? | 11:00 |
| sledges | http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.log.html | 11:01 |
| sledges | 09:17:54 <lbt> eleroux: I thought so but it's for nemo people to decide about glacier | 11:01 |
| sledges | it's happening | 11:01 |
| sledges | summary: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html | 11:01 |
| lbt | there is a bz at nemomobile.org | 11:01 |
| lbt | what do you guys want to do with it when nemo's mw moves to mer ? | 11:02 |
| lbt | will nemomobile become glacier and move to a new domain? | 11:02 |
| lbt | will you reset the bz? | 11:02 |
| lbt | do you want to get rid of it and just have a space on Mer bz ? | 11:02 |
| bencoh | hmm | 12:19 |
| faenil | lbt, so, if it's not a problem of money, I'd leave Nemo's bz renaming it to glacier bz | 12:21 |
| faenil | while mw bugs etc will be moved to mer's bz | 12:21 |
| lbt | it's not a big deal money-wise - it's a small VM and shares the mer ldap | 12:22 |
| faenil | then I suggest leaving the Nemo bz for the UI stuff :) | 12:31 |
| faenil | I vote* | 12:31 |
| locusf | I vote using github issues | 12:32 |
| faenil | locusf, for UI only? | 12:32 |
| locusf | well why not the apps too? They have their repos open | 12:32 |
| faenil | yeah, gui | 12:33 |
| faenil | well, could make sense, let's see what the others think | 12:33 |
| faenil | qwazix, Morpog, sandy_locke, etc | 12:34 |
| faenil | (who am I forgetting?) | 12:34 |
| tbr | so you're dropping nemo completely and instead continuing as glacier? | 12:35 |
| locusf | if nemo becomes mer then it makes sense | 12:36 |
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| tbr | so in the end jolla did kill Mer after all. At least I'm surprised. | 12:40 |
| lbt | eh? | 12:40 |
| locusf | there 138 people here so lets hear all of them :) ? | 12:40 |
| tbr | s/Mer/Nemo/ | 12:41 |
| tbr | lbt: FTFY > so in the end jolla did kill Nemo after all. At least I'm surprised. | 12:41 |
| lbt | jolla didn't kill nemo - mer absorbed the MW when very few other projects wanted alternative MW on Mer | 12:41 |
| lbt | personally I think this gives Nemo a better base to workon | 12:42 |
| lbt | as it doesn't have to handle the MW integration and can focus on UI and a smaller top layer | 12:42 |
| tbr | lbt: well the topic was pushed as "Nemo should be folded into Mer" by Jolla. conveniently ignoring that they meant MW and thus ignoring its community. | 12:43 |
| lbt | also makes Mer more 'complete' by having more service integration and a better one-stop install for, eg, ofono/accountsd based headless/web systems | 12:43 |
| lbt | meh - bad wording | 12:44 |
| tbr | _repeatedly_ although people pointed it out and the initial mentions got already people rubbed the wrong way | 12:44 |
| lbt | and tbh the discussion should not have been in a sailfish meeting | 12:44 |
| lbt | when's the next nemo meeting btw? :D | 12:44 |
| tbr | just saying, I'm not surprised that now the nemo people want to walk away from Nemo and roll under the glacier name | 12:44 |
| * tbr does not feed trolls | 12:45 | |
| lbt | erm .. ok | 12:45 |
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| * lbt thinks people need to remember that interpretation happens after reading words, not before writing them | 12:46 | |
| lbt | and it's not lossless | 12:46 |
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| * faenil reads backlog | 12:47 | |
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| lbt | but if you choose to assume without any CRC then that's your issue :) | 12:47 |
| SK_work | faenil: -1 for bz for issues: bz is tedious to use since we have github | 12:48 |
| lbt | personally I saw the mer/nemo merge thing as a way for Mer to help the nemo community - but if that's not how it was seen then OK | 12:48 |
| SK_work | didn't read backlogs yet | 12:48 |
| tbr | lbt: the _form_ was lacking, a lot. | 12:48 |
| lbt | tbr: the problem is that many of us don't change our hats - we are simultaneous members of multiple communities | 12:49 |
| lbt | and we don't differentiate - we're looking to optimise for all | 12:49 |
| tbr | I struggle to find the right wording as it's a mine field left behind by other events. But there was a LOT of valid criticism and much did not change. | 12:49 |
| tbr | and the hat thing is just ridiculous, it does not work. | 12:50 |
| lbt | so when I discuss mer/nemo in Fosdem near a sailfish meeting wearing a jolla shirt ... who am I? | 12:50 |
| tbr | it's like saying I have a different set of ethics at work and at home | 12:50 |
| lbt | many people do | 12:50 |
| tbr | does wearing a jolla shirt make me a jolla employee? | 12:50 |
| lbt | it kinda does for me | 12:50 |
| tbr | hint: it's been proven impossible to have two sets of ethics | 12:51 |
| lbt | interesting | 12:51 |
| lbt | nb ... you mentioned "by Jolla" | 12:52 |
| lbt | I hate that phrase | 12:52 |
| lbt | there is no disembodied jolla | 12:53 |
| lbt | it typically *does* lead to multiple ethics ... what would jolla do? | 12:53 |
| lbt | != what should I do? | 12:53 |
| Merbot | lbt: Error: "=" is not a valid command. | 12:53 |
| lbt | :P | 12:53 |
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| tbr | there is Jolla the company, and people perceive it as an entity, despite the valiant efforts of jolla to dissociate itself from all its employees in all public matters | 12:54 |
| tbr | btw: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-60Uu1n7gho4/UvoDKzRYT2I/AAAAAAAADAU/W39ZVEddGIY/w1024-h768-no/rK5_IMGP4585_3.jpg | 12:54 |
| lbt | it's not an entity - common fallacy | 12:54 |
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| lbt | and actually that's part of the problem - people rail against the machine ... but there isn't one! | 12:55 |
| tbr | A corporation is a separate legal entity that has been incorporated either directly through legislation or through a registration process established by law. | 12:55 |
| lbt | +1 | 12:55 |
| lbt | that's a legal construct | 12:55 |
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| tbr | you should know better than to argue this point with me, as e.g. you know very well how nearly impossible it was to get a statement of support for Chum, due to the whole "there are only sailors" bullcrap | 12:56 |
| lbt | yep | 12:57 |
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| lbt | IMO that was different - you're asking there for Jolla's consensus opinion/policy | 12:58 |
| lbt | this is you saying Jolla *has* a policy on Nemo ... but .... e.g. you know very well how nearly impossible it was to get a statement of support for Chum, due to the whole "there are only sailors" bullcrap ... so what makes you think there is one for Nemo/Mer ? | 12:58 |
| lbt | nb tbr I'm really trying just to talk about it here | 12:59 |
| lbt | and explain my perspective | 12:59 |
| lbt | not have a fight or anything | 12:59 |
| tbr | yes, and I'm trying to get it across, that this whole scheme drives people away | 13:00 |
| tbr | jolla is like this swarm of fish, once here once there, but if you try to touch it, it just disappears into the sea as a million individual fish | 13:01 |
| lbt | ok | 13:01 |
| lbt | some clarification ... what do you mean by scheme ? | 13:01 |
| lbt | also I think that's not an unreasonable picture of Jolla (the fish) | 13:02 |
| lbt | the fish individually do what they can - but they tend not to act as a whole | 13:02 |
| tbr | what I mean is, that Jolla seems to think that it can extend its internal way of behaviour and working beyond the boundaries of itself | 13:02 |
| lbt | alternatively we've tried to bring the community way of working into our jobs | 13:03 |
| lbt | jolla does not think | 13:03 |
| lbt | jolla does not exist | 13:03 |
| lbt | jolla would fail even the Daily Mail's Turing test! | 13:03 |
| tbr | well, the US jurisdiction on corporate persons (sic!) disagrees, but I digress | 13:04 |
| lbt | hah - proof of the Turing bit though :D | 13:04 |
| tbr | if jolla does not exist, then I can make decisions about sailfish as I'm as much an individual as any sailor | 13:05 |
| lbt | I was typing : you're kinda right - jolla does exists through policy - but my point is it has a very loose policy | 13:05 |
| lbt | one policy controls jolla-owned code - internal sailors only | 13:06 |
| lbt | so that explains that | 13:06 |
| tbr | I'm sorry, but you're chasing a dream, an ideal. The sad truth is, that Jolla is as much a corporation as Nokia. I've seen it again and again who Nokias bad behavioural patterns are replicated by sailors. | 13:06 |
| lbt | oh, I don't disagree | 13:06 |
| tbr | then this whole discussion is moot | 13:06 |
| lbt | Jolla will have it's flaws as an organisation | 13:06 |
| lbt | well, no | 13:06 |
| tbr | you can't have the corporate cake and disclaim that it doesn't exist | 13:07 |
| lbt | then listen to what I say :) | 13:07 |
| lbt | Jolla has no individual existence as a thinking being | 13:07 |
| artemma | In theory tbr can make any decisions abt Sailfish OS direction as any other individual. In practice it is limited by copyright on some code parts and by financing of the developer time | 13:08 |
| tbr | artemma: I can't roll a release. I can't cancel or approve a feature. | 13:08 |
| lbt | I'd argue that jolla only communicates via policy agreed by sailors | 13:08 |
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| lbt | and that we can all influence that policy | 13:08 |
| artemma | and by coherent focus too probably as I guess it's way more motivating to work towards some common grande goal rather then just do a small adjustment here and there | 13:08 |
| tbr | I'd argue that Jolla seldomly communicates, ever | 13:09 |
| lbt | I'd argue that's a good thing | 13:09 |
| artemma | tbr: you sure can roll a release of the open parts. That is called nemo though :) | 13:09 |
| lbt | corporates tend to be twats | 13:09 |
| tbr | artemma: you just proved my point | 13:09 |
| artemma | yeah, no arguing here :) | 13:09 |
| lbt | I really don't like what most corporates end up agreeing as a consensus of their employees - it's despicable | 13:09 |
| artemma | I am just not sure it is bad for me as the end user and end developer. | 13:10 |
| lbt | asking a sociopath to join your community is nuts ... | 13:10 |
| * artemma doesn't mind coherent focus enforced by a cruel CEO if it produces great coherent results | 13:10 | |
| artemma | not sure if I'd have fun working there though :) | 13:10 |
| tbr | lbt: in a way I find it much harder to work with an ethereal Jolla, than with Nokia; community wise. | 13:11 |
| artemma | though many Apple employees seemed to enjoy it according to the rumors | 13:11 |
| lbt | tbr: OK - I can accept that | 13:11 |
| lbt | tbr: but my point is - is that a bad thing ... isn't it better to try live without a corporate in the open area? | 13:12 |
| lbt | I don't really want this big unchanging, semi-anonymous corporate character telling us what to do | 13:12 |
| lbt | look at Intel in MeeGo | 13:13 |
| tbr | lbt: the problem is that there is the duality of things. The corporate shows up all the time. Makes intransparent internal decisions. Folds Nemo MW into Mer, announces it on the _sailfish_ ML, etc. | 13:13 |
| lbt | OK | 13:13 |
| lbt | folding Nemo into Mer was something Carsten and I discussed (with others) as a proposal | 13:13 |
| tbr | and that's what I find highly unfair. Jolla reserves the right to be intangible and claims it doesn't exist. While all the time inflicting things on its community. | 13:13 |
| * artemma recalls from his corporate times: it was always way more clear and easy when there was a strong leader voice in a particular area. Even if such a leader had to follow some higher decisions he didn't like | 13:13 | |
| lbt | tbr: woah | 13:14 |
| lbt | you're saying "Carsten and I" is Jolla ? | 13:14 |
| tbr | that's what it boils down to | 13:14 |
| tbr | lbt: by your point, anyone is jolla, to use your argument against yourself. | 13:14 |
| lbt | what this comes back to is Mer people not communicating well | 13:14 |
| lbt | no, I never said that | 13:14 |
| tbr | whaaaa? | 13:14 |
| * artemma thinks stskeeps is quite a big part of what Jolla is. In his particular area | 13:14 | |
| tbr | ok, sorry, no, but just no. | 13:14 |
| lbt | "anyone is jolla" ??? | 13:14 |
| lbt | artemma: that's an issue for him - and it was what I meant about hats | 13:15 |
| tbr | For the record, I agree that we disagree, highly. | 13:15 |
| lbt | tbr: don't let me make you say that | 13:15 |
| lbt | there's just a misunderstanding | 13:15 |
| lbt | lets find it | 13:15 |
| qwazix | faenil, pong | 13:15 |
| artemma | it's a pity, because I do like his voice a lot. Don't always agree with the priorities, but stskeeps tends to be pretty clear about the priorities and directions | 13:16 |
| lbt | "anyone is jolla" ??? - where did you think I meant that? | 13:16 |
| faenil | qwazix, hey o/ | 13:16 |
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| faenil | qwazix, read the few lines above my ping to you ;) | 13:16 |
| qwazix | yep, doing so now | 13:17 |
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| faenil | thanks | 13:17 |
| qwazix | btw, I don't think we should go with naming the distro Glacier | 13:17 |
| qwazix | it's the theme's name, just like Android's Holo and WP's metro | 13:18 |
| tbr | lbt: we can have a philosophical discussion another day. Right now I'm heading out as the weather finally is a bit better. | 13:18 |
| sledges | and breeze | 13:18 |
| qwazix | not to mention that now it becomes clearer what nemo is | 13:19 |
| lbt | tbr: OK - please lets do that - maybe at devaamo | 13:19 |
| * artemma actually hopes there will be more voices such as stskeeps in the other areas. Like for design approach or sharing or messaging. Aard seems to emerge as such a voice for harbour if I am not mixing things | 13:19 | |
| qwazix | mer is the base, nemo the distro with Glacier, apps and all | 13:19 |
| tbr | lbt: that would be in about 11 months | 13:19 |
| lbt | tbr: :( | 13:19 |
| tbr | it's just not happening this year | 13:19 |
| lbt | yeah - OK | 13:19 |
| lbt | shame | 13:19 |
| tbr | me not having a job does not help either | 13:19 |
| SK_work | ;( | 13:19 |
| SK_work | :( | 13:19 |
| lbt | tbr indeed | 13:19 |
| lbt | moving conversation : no-one has said nemo should go. Just that the mw stuff fits into Mer's 'core' better nowadays | 13:20 |
| * stephg comes back to desk and struggles through backlog | 13:20 | |
| lbt | and personally I don't want to see Nemo go away - but I'd like to make it easier to do Nemo things | 13:20 |
| faenil | qwazix, agree, we shouldn't name it glacier | 13:21 |
| lbt | and by moving the non-differentiated stuff into Mer and using Jolla's resources that should help Nemo focus on the UI and such | 13:21 |
| qwazix | lbt, :nod:, I'm just against the idea of renaming to Glacier that tbr threw earlier | 13:21 |
| qwazix | lbt, I agree | 13:21 |
| tbr | qwazix: I did _NOT_ propose that | 13:22 |
| qwazix | tbr sorry, I was referring to this <tbr> [15:35:44] so you're dropping nemo completely and instead continuing as glacier? | 13:22 |
| lbt | qwazix: I'd quite like Nemo to just continue and release something called/using-the-word Glacier | 13:22 |
| qwazix | indeed NOT a proposal | 13:22 |
| faenil | personally, I don't see anything bad about the Nemo/Mer merge | 13:22 |
| tbr | qwazix: that was a summary of someone's statement | 13:22 |
| qwazix | ah, didin't read enough backlog then | 13:23 |
| faenil | there wasn't any request to keep them separated, so I don't see why it shouldn't happen, if it makes life easier for the people who actually use them | 13:23 |
| tbr | faenil: technically it's sound and good. it's execution was... | 13:23 |
| SK_work | that can be something tedious for those who are not prepared | 13:23 |
| SK_work | faenil: what i see is infra change | 13:23 |
| tbr | anyway, I'm out. | 13:23 |
| qwazix | bb | 13:23 |
| faenil | tbr, ok | 13:23 |
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| faenil | tbr, enjoy the sun! :D | 13:23 |
| qwazix | hurrian, o/ | 13:23 |
| lbt | tbr: good chat .. smile :) | 13:23 |
| hurrian | ohai qwazix! | 13:23 |
| * lbt afk for food | 13:24 | |
| faenil | tbr, when you're back, where did you get the "dropping nemo completely and continue as GLacier" thing? :) | 13:24 |
| qwazix | we're discussing about direction now that Nemo-MW folds into Mer | 13:24 |
| qwazix | faenil, btw regarding issues, I certainly like GitHub issues more than BZ but having everything on a third-party service worries me | 13:25 |
| faenil | qwazix, well, now that nemo is merged, this decision is relevant :) without the merge it didn't make any sense | 13:25 |
| hurrian | qwazix, it's merged already? | 13:25 |
| faenil | hurrian, no, will be merged in the near future | 13:26 |
| qwazix | I think it's just been decided | 13:26 |
| faenil | i.e. it takes time | 13:26 |
| faenil | qwazix, no, it was decided months ago | 13:26 |
| qwazix | ah, ok | 13:26 |
| SK_work | there were mails, but no much discussion sadly | 13:26 |
| SK_work | well at least noone complained | 13:26 |
| faenil | yes, none complained | 13:27 |
| SK_work | (on mer ml) | 13:27 |
| faenil | so, now...shall we ;) | 13:27 |
| hurrian | so, it's basically extending what Mer provides as a reference implementation? | 13:27 |
| SK_work | what I'm seeing is just infra migration, that can be a headache | 13:27 |
| faenil | yep | 13:27 |
| qwazix | why complain? I always thought that was a more sane approach | 13:27 |
| SK_work | hurrian: Mer getting many packages | 13:27 |
| faenil | qwazix, it seems everyone agrees on the merge ;) tbr only has something to say about how things were handled, on the formal side | 13:28 |
| qwazix | faenil, :nod: | 13:28 |
| faenil | qwazix, hurrian btw, our decision atm is, do we want our own bugzilla for ui stuff, or do you want a section in mer's bz? | 13:28 |
| faenil | SK_work, ^ as well | 13:29 |
| qwazix | how much effort is it to maintain a seperate bugzilla? | 13:29 |
| hurrian | I think UI should be parted off from the general bugzilla, as I'm sure we'll get loads and loads of feature enhancement requests. | 13:29 |
| SK_work | faenil: personally, I prefer either mer bz, or github bz | 13:29 |
| SK_work | (github bugtracker) | 13:29 |
| qwazix | hurrian, +1 | 13:29 |
| faenil | hurrian, agree | 13:29 |
| SK_work | I would prefer something easy to use | 13:29 |
| SK_work | easier than bz | 13:29 |
| SK_work | github is good, but 3rd party | 13:30 |
| hurrian | regular Mer BZ should be for the core, critical bugs | 13:30 |
| SK_work | gitlab ? | 13:30 |
| qwazix | SK_work, <3 gitlab | 13:30 |
| faenil | I wouldn't worry about the 3rd party at the moment | 13:30 |
| hurrian | and I think putting a sea of feature requests in it would be awful for both users and devs. | 13:30 |
| SK_work | does gitlab have bug support ? | 13:30 |
| faenil | we barely have people working on UI | 13:30 |
| stephg | SK_work: any particular reason for the worry as to the 3rd-party-ness of github (or bitbucket or...) | 13:30 |
| faenil | and we're worrying about 3rd party services? srsly :D | 13:30 |
| SK_work | you loose your bugs etc. | 13:30 |
| SK_work | stephg: what if it's down ? outrage etc. | 13:30 |
| SK_work | faenil: yeah true | 13:31 |
| hurrian | something easy like Jolla Together sounds nice | 13:31 |
| qwazix | faenil, I fear shutdown more than anything else | 13:31 |
| faenil | waitwaitwaitwaitwait | 13:31 |
| faenil | :D | 13:31 |
| SK_work | but I think github is more pleasant to use for developers | 13:31 |
| faenil | no tjc for nemo bugs, pretty please :P | 13:31 |
| SK_work | faenil: tjc like ? :D | 13:31 |
| stephg | SK_work outage aside you have no issues? | 13:31 |
| faenil | I've been fighting all morning against tjc as a bug reporting platform | 13:31 |
| SK_work | but no tjc please | 13:31 |
| SK_work | stephg: not really | 13:31 |
| locusf | me neither with github | 13:32 |
| SK_work | maybe too simple (ie not nice for dozen of bugs) but we don't have dozen of bugs | 13:32 |
| faenil | SK_work, is there anyone actually having issues with bz? | 13:32 |
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| qwazix | if we have a little machine doing git clones every night and copying the bug database (if possible) I don't have issues with 3rd party either | 13:32 |
| SK_work | faenil: too complex | 13:32 |
| SK_work | just far too complex, and not fast | 13:32 |
| faenil | qwazix, once a month is more than enough for us xD | 13:33 |
| qwazix | faenil, even so | 13:33 |
| SK_work | not about issues, but more about ... efficiency, bz is not efficient | 13:33 |
| faenil | SK_work, visiting every repo to see the issues is fast instead? | 13:33 |
| SK_work | github is more simple / efficient | 13:33 |
| SK_work | and you have your bugs when working on a repo | 13:33 |
| SK_work | faenil: will we have many repos ? if we only work in ui side | 13:33 |
| SK_work | components, homescreen, and a couple of apps ? | 13:33 |
| faenil | okay, I don't particularly like the fact that I don't have a main view of the bugs in the project | 13:33 |
| faenil | but that's just me | 13:34 |
| SK_work | faenil: ah | 13:34 |
| SK_work | I would +1 you for this | 13:34 |
| qwazix | gitlab has that view | 13:34 |
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| faenil | I mean, I really like a website which is only for that, bugs | 13:34 |
| faenil | qwazix, really? cool | 13:34 |
| SK_work | it might be important | 13:34 |
| SK_work | for "project manager" if Nemo have some (faenil ?) | 13:34 |
| qwazix | and a gitlab droplet on digitalocean can be set up in a minute | 13:34 |
| SK_work | I'm not against moving to mer gitlab actually | 13:34 |
| faenil | qwazix, setting what where? :D | 13:35 |
| SK_work | ? | 13:35 |
| hurrian | DigitalOcean <3 | 13:35 |
| SK_work | have mirror on github in case of outrage | 13:35 |
| SK_work | there is mer gitlab that is already setup :P | 13:35 |
| qwazix | faenil, sorry scratch that, it shows all issues assigned to you on the general page | 13:35 |
| artemma | outrage :) | 13:35 |
| faenil | qwazix, okay | 13:35 |
| faenil | artemma, :D | 13:36 |
| artemma | nemo is a cruel business | 13:36 |
| faenil | so, let's vote | 13:36 |
| faenil | let's post to ml | 13:36 |
| artemma | only real tough people develop phone platform without a phone | 13:36 |
| qwazix | faenil, latest version shows everyones issues too | 13:36 |
| faenil | where should I post? | 13:36 |
| SK_work | faenil: maybe to mer ML ? (right now) | 13:37 |
| SK_work | should we ask our own ML ? | 13:37 |
| faenil | dunno | 13:38 |
| SK_work | faenil: I guess mer ML is empty enough for us to use ;) | 13:38 |
| faenil | :) | 13:39 |
| SK_work | you can add a prefix if you want ([nemo-ui]) | 13:39 |
| faenil | that's *exactly* what I did :D | 13:39 |
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| SK_work | faenil: :) | 13:40 |
| SK_work | hope that we could have more discussions on mer ml after mer-nemo merging | 13:40 |
| SK_work | (like middleware discussion too ?) | 13:40 |
| SK_work | don't know how this can go | 13:40 |
| faenil | yeah | 13:41 |
| faenil | I don't think we need our own ml, atm | 13:41 |
| faenil | (as long as mer people are okay with that) | 13:41 |
| faenil | SK_work, 2 days for the voting is okay I guess | 13:46 |
| faenil | or 1 week? | 13:47 |
| faenil | qwazix, ? | 13:47 |
| stephg | 2 days is short | 13:47 |
| faenil | 1 week? | 13:48 |
| stephg | ooi, how many people are involved that don't hang out here much? | 13:48 |
| faenil | very few | 13:48 |
| stephg | faenil: 1 week seems reasonable to me | 13:48 |
| stephg | right | 13:48 |
| faenil | ok | 13:48 |
| SK_work | 2 days is short | 13:48 |
| faenil | I'm just posting to ML to avoid complains like "you didn't do things right, you should have posted that on ML" in the future | 13:48 |
| SK_work | 1 week | 13:48 |
| faenil | if it were for me, I'd declare it done now already, lol | 13:48 |
| SK_work | faenil: let's post more on ML acutally | 13:49 |
| faenil | all people who *actually* work on the UI have voted anyway :D | 13:49 |
| faenil | (ah, Morpog and sandy missing) | 13:49 |
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| stephg | ;) | 13:51 |
| faenil | msg sent | 13:51 |
| SK_work | faenil: msg not received :P | 13:52 |
| faenil | :O | 13:52 |
| faenil | mer-general@lists.merproject.org | 13:53 |
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| SK_work | don't worry | 13:54 |
| SK_work | faenil: got it :) | 13:54 |
| faenil | :) | 13:54 |
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| stephg | mael froem faenil raecaeived | 13:56 |
| stephg | ;) | 13:56 |
| faenil | ghiehg | 13:56 |
| faenil | :D | 13:56 |
| faenil | (don't ask why I wrote that) | 13:57 |
| stephg | your cat wrote it? | 13:57 |
| faenil | nope, no cats here :( | 13:57 |
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| Morpog_Jolla_ | sup, got dome flaky connection here | 13:59 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | some | 13:59 |
| faenil | Morpog_Jolla_, read email on mer-general ml ;) | 13:59 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | got me link to ml? on phone here | 14:00 |
| SK_work | faenil: replied :) | 14:01 |
| faenil | I haven't received it yet... | 14:01 |
| faenil | wonder what happened to my ml subscription | 14:01 |
| SK_work | Morpog_Jolla_: https://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg01464.html | 14:01 |
| faenil | SK_work, received your reply, there's some delay it seems :) | 14:03 |
| SK_work | faenil: yep, np :) | 14:03 |
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| Morpog_Jolla_ | will need to subscribe fist, gonna do that later at home | 14:07 |
| locusf | you can answer here too :) | 14:08 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | weren't mer repos also on github? | 14:08 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | mer-packages | 14:08 |
| locusf | yeah | 14:08 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | why gitlab then? | 14:09 |
| locusf | but migrating to git.merproject.org at the moment | 14:09 |
| locusf | which is gitlab | 14:09 |
| Morpog_Jolla_ | aaaah | 14:09 |
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| Morpog_Jolla_ | i would ask a moe drastic question: is it worth kerping nemo as an own distro? Wouldn't it be more sane to base on sailfish? Seeing that the only proper target nemomobile had was n9 and n950 on x11 + qt4 | 14:14 |
| faenil | EVERYONE PLEASE VOTE ON THE ML :D | 14:14 |
| faenil | thanks | 14:14 |
| faenil | VOTES ON IRC ARE NOT VALID :P | 14:14 |
| locusf | it _might_ be possible to do nemo on Jolla | 14:14 |
| SK_work | faenil: please :d | 14:15 |
| locusf | we have yet to investigate with faenil | 14:15 |
| locusf | faenil: but I already voted :p | 14:15 |
| SK_work | Morpog_Jolla_: isn't nemo and SFOS sharing quite a lot of packages ? | 14:15 |
| SK_work | so basically you can do both can't you ? | 14:15 |
| SK_work | base on sailfish and as own distrop | 14:16 |
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| Morpog_Jolla_ | well, lots of effort but minimal roi | 14:16 |
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| faenil | no no, no basing on sailfish, imho | 14:19 |
| faenil | nemo is cool because it's all OSS | 14:19 |
| faenil | and I don't intend to change that, but we can have a vote on that as well :D | 14:19 |
| SK_work | faenil: basing on sailfish means takes sailfish mer and nemo packages that are OSS | 14:20 |
| SK_work | and sailfish HW adaptation that is less OSS ? | 14:20 |
| SK_work | and also: have phones to develop on | 14:20 |
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| faenil | SK_work, basing on sailfish means taking contactsd, social, etc closed part from sailfish, to me | 14:20 |
| faenil | not contactsd (which is OSS), but you got what I meant | 14:21 |
| SK_work | it is: use it as a tool | 14:21 |
| SK_work | faenil: not for me ... | 14:21 |
| SK_work | yeah | 14:21 |
| faenil | all the closed-source auxiliary features | 14:21 |
| SK_work | because the two distros are very close, it's fairly easy to dev on the Jolla | 14:21 |
| SK_work | compare to ... N9 / N950, or worse, iconia tabs etc. | 14:22 |
| SK_work | the only other thing that's easy to develop on is virtualbox | 14:22 |
| bencoh | I wouldnt call that "easy", but *meh* | 14:23 |
| bencoh | easy for people that arent used to embedded/cross env maybe ... but *hell* for those who are | 14:23 |
| faenil | ? | 14:24 |
| bencoh | I guess SK_work was refferring to sailfish sdk vm | 14:25 |
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| faenil | bencoh, why easy for people who aren't used to cross env? | 14:33 |
| bencoh | well "easier" than usual cross stuff :) | 14:34 |
| SK_work | faenil: easy since you don't have a huge list of HW adaptation issues | 14:34 |
| bencoh | (actually I dont find it "easy" so ...) | 14:34 |
| faenil | bencoh, you mean it's easy for people who *are* used to cross env? | 14:34 |
| bencoh | hm, no (?) | 14:35 |
| faenil | why should it be hell for people who are already used to those practices.. | 14:35 |
| faenil | ahhhhhhhh | 14:36 |
| faenil | sorry misread, I got what you mean | 14:36 |
| bencoh | :) | 14:37 |
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| locusf | faenil: getting ready for ita-uru :)? | 15:40 |
| SK_work | I thought this was some strange language (like japenese) | 15:41 |
| SK_work | and suddenly I remember about football | 15:41 |
| sledges | i thought it was in finnish | 15:43 |
| SK_work | the uru is misleading :D | 15:43 |
| faenil | locusf, indeed! | 15:43 |
| sledges | mitakuuluu :) | 15:44 |
| locusf | lol finnish :) | 15:45 |
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| locusf | ouch | 17:58 |
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| * faenil sadly walks away | 18:00 | |
| locusf | :/ | 18:03 |
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| Morpog_PC | ok, so I never used a maillist before. What do I have to do? :D | 19:24 |
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| faenil | Morpog_PC, to subscribe? | 19:35 |
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| Morpog_PC | that I now completed, mail was in spam :) | 19:37 |
| Morpog_PC | now waiting for the help response | 19:37 |
| Morpog_PC | ok faenil that help mail didnt help at all :D | 19:38 |
| Morpog_PC | so, how do i reply to your question? | 19:38 |
| Morpog_PC | copy the subject and send to maillist? | 19:38 |
| bencoh | nope | 19:39 |
| bencoh | you hit the "answer" button | 19:39 |
| Morpog_PC | but I got no mail yet | 19:39 |
| Morpog_PC | i just subscribed | 19:39 |
| bencoh | oh, right, sorry | 19:39 |
| bencoh | best practice would be to copy the message reference to the In-Reply-To: header, to keep thread intact | 19:40 |
| bencoh | but I guess most people wouldnt do it | 19:40 |
| Morpog_PC | let's see if that works | 19:40 |
| faenil | Morpog_PC, ah, you can reply also via some websites | 19:41 |
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| Morpog_PC | did it work? :) | 19:45 |
| Morpog_PC | yes it did | 19:46 |
| faenil | Morpog_PC, ;) | 19:49 |
| Morpog_PC | now i just need to tell my spam filter not to filter it :) | 19:50 |
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| gogeta | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTcyODU | 20:08 |
| gogeta | qualcomm gpu | 20:08 |
| gogeta | https://www.codeaurora.org/projects/security-advisories/unprivileged-gpu-command-streams-can-change-iommu-page-table-cve-2014 | 20:08 |
| gogeta | http://bloggingthemonkey.blogspot.ru/2014/06/fire-in-root-hole.html | 20:10 |
| gogeta | more fun | 20:10 |
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| tbr | faenil: 12:21:48<@faenil> lbt, so, if it's not a problem of money, I'd leave Nemo's bz renaming it to glacier bz | 20:27 |
| faenil | tbr, okay, my fault it seems, I probably said the first name that came to my mind | 20:27 |
| faenil | I don't think glacier is a good name | 20:28 |
| faenil | (not at all) | 20:28 |
| tbr | for me that implied that nemo-mw folds into mer and nemo ui drops the name → nemo dead | 20:28 |
| gogeta | ossidiana faenil ? | 20:29 |
| faenil | I meant leave as in "leave it there" | 20:29 |
| gogeta | do you like it | 20:29 |
| faenil | gogeta, ? | 20:29 |
| gogeta | you don't like glacier | 20:29 |
| faenil | ahhh | 20:30 |
| faenil | no no, it's a different reason | 20:30 |
| faenil | glacier is just the current UI (current theme, actually) | 20:30 |
| faenil | we need a more generic name | 20:30 |
| faenil | tbr, I still don't see where you got that nemo ui drops the name :/ but anyway, doesn't matter :) | 20:30 |
| tbr | "renaming it to glacier" | 20:31 |
| qwazix | I don't get why are we even discussing naming | 20:31 |
| faenil | tbr, glacier is the name of nemo ui... :/ | 20:31 |
| tbr | we don't, we're discussing why I got the wrong impression | 20:31 |
| sledges | twitter.com/nemomobile <- i think it should stay like that, also if you google nemomobile you see different boards running oss ux | 20:32 |
| tbr | faenil: yes, but you will want to track more than just ui bugs | 20:32 |
| faenil | tbr, non UI bugs means nemomw -> Mer | 20:32 |
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| tbr | faenil: yes, but then nemo as such ceases to exist, exactly where I got that impression | 20:32 |
| faenil | tbr, well, nemo mw is merged with Mer, there was nothing to misunderstand there, I don't see how that is a bad thing and how that means it's dead though | 20:33 |
| faenil | it's still the same :/ | 20:33 |
| tbr | faenil: will there be still nemo mobile images for devices or will they be now called Mer+Glacier images? | 20:34 |
| tbr | maybe I'm just really bad at getting my point across | 20:34 |
| faenil | Mer+NemoUI (or Nemomobile?) | 20:34 |
| faenil | and Nemo UI could be either Glacier, or something else | 20:34 |
| faenil | tbr, I'm under the impression that you're doing a battle around naming :/ | 20:35 |
| tbr | I'm not | 20:35 |
| tbr | geeee, all I wanted to was to clarify what you guys are up to | 20:35 |
| tbr | and now I'm getting accused of being hostile | 20:35 |
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| faenil | tbr, no no :) | 20:36 |
| faenil | owww.... | 20:36 |
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| qwazix | Nemo is the distro, just like Linux Mint, or Ubuntu Gnome | 20:38 |
| qwazix | based on mer, with (for now) glacier UI on top | 20:38 |
| qwazix | Nemo is the complete product, i.e. if we get to the happy day that a product is shipped, it will say Nemo as it's OS | 20:38 |
| faenil | yeah, Nemomobile probably is the right name? | 20:39 |
| faenil | as sledges was saying | 20:39 |
| qwazix | yeah | 20:39 |
| qwazix | I always liked the concatenated version better | 20:39 |
| qwazix | death by example: Maemo is based on debian with hildon on top | 20:40 |
| qwazix | s/Maemo/Nemomobile/ s/debian/mer/ s/hildon/glacier/ | 20:41 |
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| faenil | tbr, oh hey :) so...back to where we were | 20:45 |
| tbr | I'm still going to bed now. It seems this is not my day, at all. | 20:45 |
| faenil | tbr, let's start from earlier, as I seem I misunderstood what you wanted to know, but I got it from your last msg before leaving | 20:45 |
| faenil | so, nothing changed here | 20:45 |
| faenil | (at least afaik) | 20:45 |
| faenil | we'll still be developing a UI for the new Mer (which is Mer+NemoMw) | 20:46 |
| faenil | which is what we've done so far | 20:46 |
| faenil | (we've barely touched middleware in all these months) | 20:46 |
| faenil | so, on our side, at least as far as I can tell, nothing changed :) | 20:46 |
| faenil | Nemomobile will be alive and kicking (and hopefully I can spend more time on it after I'm graduated) | 20:46 |
| faenil | and I guess the other guys ( qwazix locusf Morpog_PC sandy, and please forgive me if I'm forgetting someone) | 20:47 |
| faenil | agree with this :) | 20:47 |
| faenil | the only difference being that we'll be basing our work on the new Mer, instead of basing it on both Mer+NemoMw | 20:48 |
| faenil | so, nothing is dead, just a few new names, for the same stuff ;) | 20:48 |
| tbr | well nothing changes then and all was just me misunderstanding your intentions | 20:49 |
| faenil | (at least this is what I think) | 20:49 |
| faenil | tbr, awesome to hear that :) and sorry for the misunderstanding | 20:49 |
| faenil | tbr, so, what we were discussing is whether to keep the current NemoMw+NemoUI bugzilla for only NemoUI stuff (which is what we focus on) | 20:49 |
| faenil | or switch NemoUI stuff to gitlab/github issues for bugtracking purposes | 20:50 |
| faenil | tbr, please say your opinion on ML as well, if you have experience with those tools ;) | 20:50 |
| tbr | I personally feel that there are significant trust issues with Jolla and their behaviour. At several points thei asserted ownership of Mer _and_ Nemo (without clarifying to mean nemo-mw) and their intention to do as they please. | 20:51 |
| faenil | tbr, I agree with those points, btw | 20:51 |
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| faenil | but don't worry you'd see me setting their homes on fire if they were to kill Nemomobile just like that :D | 20:52 |
| tbr | and to be blunt honest, the whole story of "Jolla does not exist" is a load of hogwash, jerking off to an idealised concept that's extremely hard to grasp. | 20:52 |
| faenil | tbr, I agree that atm the Jolla entity is only being used when they see pleased | 20:53 |
| faenil | but let's not start this discussion, if you're going to bed :D | 20:53 |
| tbr | yes, that's for another day | 20:53 |
| sledges | wouldn't this be more like Jolla being the vendor within Mer -- the way Mer was actually structured ? | 20:54 |
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| sledges | and also the biggest vendor - hence meroticracy (?) just speculating here.. | 20:54 |
| sledges | *meritocracy | 20:54 |
| faenil | "when they see pleased" does that even mean anything? or was it a brain fart? | 20:54 |
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| faenil | I probably wanted to use another idiom, but can't remember it atm | 20:55 |
| tbr | "when they please" (as in when they feel like it) | 20:56 |
| faenil | mm could be, but I remember there was a "see" | 20:57 |
| tbr | as they see fit? | 20:57 |
| faenil | maybe I was thinking about "when they see fit?" | 20:57 |
| faenil | yeah | 20:57 |
| faenil | as they see | 20:57 |
| faenil | could be | 20:57 |
| faenil | thanks | 20:58 |
| tbr | sledges: nobody disputes that and its contributions, but it's not an excuse for the non-open-source-culture like behaviour that we've seen over the past year | 20:58 |
| faenil | +1 | 20:58 |
| sledges | errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum | 20:59 |
| * sledges feels very smart for this tiny moment :))) | 20:59 | |
| faenil | sledges, you think there hasn't been enough perseverare? :D | 20:59 |
| tbr | sledges: yes, and we (the open source community) are eager to see things change, but we're careful | 20:59 |
| sledges | faenil: nevertheless, it has not been a constant idle or worse, regress | 21:00 |
| sledges | the question is, how tolerant+empathetic the community is towards its main contributor | 21:02 |
| faenil | sledges, I haven't see a single discussion about nemo since jolla got into the release rush | 21:02 |
| sledges | who does't do bad things on purpose.. | 21:02 |
| tbr | also it does not help, that jolla essentially has raped the term "open" PR wise like any other corporation has done before. there, I said it out loud. | 21:02 |
| tbr | if jolla says open, I first think of OOXML-kind-of-open. That's how bad this is for me. | 21:03 |
| sledges | faenil: you'd like jolla to embark on nemo? (sorry must have missed something in a backlog, i though it was more about a recent tbr's misunderstanding) | 21:03 |
| sledges | i disagree with "truly open" slogan | 21:03 |
| tbr | sledges: no, we're now in general criticism. | 21:03 |
| sledges | "opening up more and more" would be better (cc: lbt) | 21:04 |
| sledges | i share his opinion | 21:04 |
| sledges | just didn't come up with a good PR slogan :) | 21:04 |
| tbr | the problem is the total disconnect between PR and what the company tries to do, apparently | 21:04 |
| tbr | which probably works on consumers, but the open source community is pissed | 21:05 |
| faenil | sledges, I remember when I spent a lot of time on nemo, the chat was quite active | 21:05 |
| faenil | before jolla set up his own server | 21:05 |
| tbr | really pissed. I'm not the only one, go and look at all the others who recently voiced their criticism. | 21:05 |
| faenil | and from then on, it's been so convenient to just hide behind the "oh, but we discuss a lot of confidential stuff" slogan | 21:06 |
| tbr | fk_lx had a _lot_ of valid criticism and it's a shame its credibility has been essentially nullified | 21:06 |
| faenil | +1000 on that | 21:06 |
| faenil | but I guess most of us know and agree on that | 21:07 |
| sledges | i've seen he opened jolla much more up | 21:07 |
| Aard | sledges: not true | 21:07 |
| sledges | and we're continuing on doing so | 21:07 |
| Aard | everything we did there was not connected to him in any way | 21:07 |
| sledges | well Aard, he made roadmap emails see the light of day | 21:07 |
| sledges | and sailfish weekly meetings iirc | 21:08 |
| sledges | there were some more bits and pieces | 21:08 |
| Aard | sledges: that's all stuff we've been working on for a long time. there might have been bits that got moved a few weeks, but that's about it | 21:08 |
| fk_lx | tbr: shit happens - I'm focusing on legal steps, I don't care much about credibility in this community | 21:09 |
| faenil | Aard, Jolla is always "working on" a lot of stuff, most of which unfortunately doesn't see the light until someone makes so much noise to make it happen | 21:09 |
| sledges | ok, from another perspective - jolla didn't have enough time for extra things as there was a product waiting to be out through the door :) but im sure you were planning those | 21:09 |
| fk_lx | have fun people | 21:10 |
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| sledges | and i see it we're on a good way | 21:11 |
| sledges | just things slowing down for summer break a bit | 21:11 |
| sledges | don't frustrate too deeply :) | 21:11 |
| Aard | sledges: faenil: thet stuff happened just when we were moving to more regular release work and due to that had time for additional stuff. timing there is just coincidence | 21:11 |
| fk_lx | I'm sure there are good people in this community, and Nemo will prevail in that or other form | 21:11 |
| fk_lx | good luck with Nemo | 21:11 |
| fk_lx | ok, goota go, cya | 21:12 |
| faenil | good night | 21:12 |
| sledges | nnite | 21:12 |
| * tbr also finally disappears | 21:12 | |
| * artemma thinks nemomobile would actually be an awesome base for a device manufacturer powerful enough to try a new OS independent from Google. Nemo could be for HTC what Tizen used to be for Samsung before the recent Google agreement | 21:13 | |
| faenil | artemma, except nobody wants to work on nemomobile except the people who have been working on it for a long time :D | 21:13 |
| artemma | well, nemo sorta is like this for Jolla, Jolla is just on a different scale | 21:13 |
| faenil | it seems we're scary :D | 21:13 |
| sledges | artemma: what agreement? | 21:13 |
| artemma | sledges: Google agreed to make Samsung special. My speculations (and some other analysts speculations) are that Tizen played its role when negotiating and is not really needed anymore | 21:14 |
| artemma | something like a month ago | 21:14 |
| sledges | i think jolla should be appreciated because people in there went for the goal, got funding, employed tens of people full time, and are making everything happen as best they can (not ideal world, but nemo should catch up - it won't be easy, but otherwise i don't there would be anything...) | 21:15 |
| sledges | artemma: makes sense... | 21:15 |
| faenil | nobody denies there's potential in jolla, or we wouldn't even be here talking about it :) | 21:16 |
| artemma | Jolla is totally an awesome startup attempt | 21:16 |
| artemma | would be cool to see it successful | 21:16 |
| artemma | after all right now it makes the only platform where I can use my beloved QML in full :) | 21:16 |
| sledges | ^_^ | 21:16 |
| * artemma would love to see sailfishos grown enough to have actual clients for contractual sailfishos apps development | 21:16 | |
| faenil | yeah | 21:17 |
| artemma | it still has a chance me thinks. Not very big, but come on, it's a startup - they never have big chances | 21:17 |
| Aard | faenil: when considering dropping bz in favour of github -- we're working on getting our CI infrastructure in shape that we can offer mer/nemo to set up their own like we're using for proper issue tracking over releases and stuff. if you move to github you won't be able to benefit from that | 21:17 |
| sledges | faenil: i think that jolla will have to scale up, and if not by headcount, i agree with you about offloading efforts to community | 21:18 |
| faenil | Aard, mmm I see, thanks...can you please reply with that info on ML? | 21:19 |
| artemma | offloading a lot or even *hell a lot of stuff* to community is sure a significant risk. But is it higher than failing to run the same real properly on limited own finances and few people? :) | 21:19 |
| faenil | sledges, everyone agrees, and still, after *months*, community can still mostly nothing | 21:20 |
| faenil | +di | 21:20 |
| faenil | do | 21:20 |
| artemma | well, it takes somebody to make a decision at the very least :) | 21:20 |
| artemma | and decision making can be difficult | 21:20 |
| Aard | faenil: not sure yet, might be that I'll only play catch up on the mailinglist when I'm back from vacation in august. too much stuff to take care of before than (and making sure that the behind-the-scenes stuff for community work does not stall is one of them) | 21:20 |
| artemma | especially if decision makers are overloaded with current tactical issues | 21:20 |
| faenil | Aard, is it okay if I quote you then? | 21:21 |
| sledges | faenil: community should suggest more concrete steps how they can help, so jolla has to think less and just say yes :) put more thought in it, write some infra themselves | 21:21 |
| faenil | sledges, .... | 21:21 |
| sledges | instead of just saying we need beta testers | 21:21 |
| sledges | rome won't be built in a day | 21:22 |
| bencoh | beta testers for ? | 21:22 |
| bencoh | nemo, mer, or sailfish ? | 21:22 |
| sledges | bencoh: sorry off topic | 21:22 |
| sledges | sailfish | 21:22 |
| bencoh | :) | 21:22 |
| sledges | :) | 21:22 |
| Aard | faenil: you can, but make it clear that there are no promises regarding schedule. mer infra itself is a bit messy atm, so upgrading is a bit rough, it ties in to the bugzilla upgrade (=lots of work by itself), and we need to do customizations only relevant for mer (we did some customizations for webhooks we'll hopefully soon roll out on mer infra allowing definition of project namespaces on obs and acls to create webhooks in those, ... | 21:23 |
| Aard | ... eliminating the current handful of admins who are the only ones capable of doing webhooks) | 21:23 |
| sledges | faenil: i guess we all can say - we don't have enough time to mastermind :)) #21stcenturyproblems | 21:24 |
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| faenil | Aard, okay, I'll add a note about the "no promises" | 21:25 |
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| Aard | I'll try to get one other member of jolla started before I go on vacation (7.7.), but not sure yet if it'll work out -- just bought a house, a bit faster than expected, and have fun organizing the move on top of everything else | 21:26 |
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| sledges | faenil: given nemo development is levels and headcount suffices to do issue tracking on github, a changeover to more centralised bz can be done later, no? | 21:26 |
| artemma | wasn't the simplest first step to take community in already agreed to be an actual bug tracker? | 21:26 |
| Aard | between 7.7. and 3.8. I'll probably only be around occasionally. need to start taking last years vacation :) | 21:27 |
| sledges | Aard: congrats on house | 21:27 |
| faenil | Aard, just have the community do the move, eheh | 21:27 |
| faenil | and congrats, yeah :) | 21:27 |
| * artemma remembers real bug tracker being agreed on #mer-meeting something like a month ago yet today there was again discussion on why isn't TJC good for it | 21:27 | |
| artemma | Aard: congrats with the house! | 21:27 |
| faenil | sledges, yes I think so | 21:27 |
| faenil | artemma, ah thank you, because when I said we agreed about a real bug tracker | 21:27 |
| faenil | the replies were disappointing | 21:27 |
| faenil | lbt, ^ | 21:28 |
| Aard | faenil: not that easy, part of my plan there is to introduce one of our ladies as a regular contact coordinating technical stuff around community, but who is available for your issues as well. that just needs to be done setting up from our side | 21:28 |
| * artemma wasn't participating much today - busy with other stuff, but noticed that surprising moment | 21:28 | |
| faenil | Aard, I meant the house move ;) | 21:28 |
| bencoh | to be honest, I dont understand a damn thing about current obs/repository tracking/* in mer (or in nemo for that matters) :) | 21:28 |
| faenil | bencoh, understandable :D | 21:29 |
| Aard | faenil: ah, sure. just drop by, everyone only one box :p | 21:29 |
| faenil | Aard, eheh | 21:29 |
| * artemma wonders if there is actually some person in Jolla to make decisions about it. Sometimes it feels like Nokiaish decision paralysis, because nobody knows whose decision it is to be and wants the committee to agree | 21:29 | |
| bencoh | I know it had to move at some point, but how/where to/what to .... no idea ^^ | 21:29 |
| faenil | artemma, THAT | 21:29 |
| faenil | THAT, THAT! | 21:29 |
| bencoh | :D | 21:29 |
| artemma | In Nokis times it was usually solved by courageous leutenants that were making it semi-officially on some privately hijacked servers. Jolla might however be not big and bureacratic enough for such leutenants to exist :) | 21:30 |
| sledges | artemma: jolla employees register bugs internally, yet work in the open; goal is underway to externalise those bugs, what Aard said above; a hasty introduction of an ad hoc bug tracker would just stir things up for all parties | 21:30 |
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| artemma | sledges: I guess people would appreciate some roadmap hints about it | 21:31 |
| faenil | sledges, work in the open is a big word | 21:31 |
| artemma | oh wait, was somebody saying it before already? :) | 21:31 |
| sledges | meeting minutes? | 21:31 |
| faenil | they push to repos, that | 21:31 |
| bencoh | (co-mmu-ni-ca-tion :°) | 21:31 |
| faenil | they work behind closed door (very closed) but push to open repos | 21:31 |
| * artemma also thinks that community is overusing com-mu-ni-cation demands :) | 21:32 | |
| artemma | Jolla people communicate *a lot* right here | 21:32 |
| faenil | yes, right here, that's the problem :P | 21:32 |
| artemma | there are very specific types of communication missing | 21:32 |
| artemma | IMHO it is at least semi-public and semi-sure roadmap that is missing most | 21:32 |
| faenil | artemma, we had that discussion already | 21:33 |
| Aard | artemma: tl;dr for the bugtracker: mer-bz needs to be upgraded, and will then be linked to the jolla-bz, so we can use mer-bugs for issue tracking internally, while comments and stuff still end up in mer-bz. that should be tied in with us trying to sell you advantages of our CI processes | 21:33 |
| artemma | yeah, sorry for going to another circle | 21:33 |
| faenil | and the solution was that soumya will post roadmaps at each iteration planning | 21:33 |
| Aard | the whole thing is a bit of a testbed for a possible sailfish bugzilla instance as well, which, if it happens, will open up several other things | 21:33 |
| sledges | faenil: that's called code-drops, and public bug tracker would make things more transparent; however in mer-general we already have people saying about their decisions and then requesting comments before they merge code | 21:33 |
| artemma | Aard: that sounds good to me, thanks. Bugzilla should be standard enough for everybody (even if some would prefer a different tracker) | 21:34 |
| faenil | Aard, where were you during the meeting :P | 21:35 |
| faenil | (thanks for the update) | 21:35 |
| Aard | we've been at that since last year, but only recently started having time to actually push things. right now issues on mer-side exist in our bugzilla, but must be tracked manually -- which is an intentional decision by me back then to make it so painful for releases that we'll eventually be forced to do the bz work we're doing now | 21:35 |
| Aard | faenil: which one? | 21:36 |
| faenil | Aard, today's community meeting, where we had a 30mins discussion about nemo/mer merge and bugzilla situation | 21:36 |
| faenil | it seems nobody believed we actually agreed a real tracker was coming | 21:36 |
| faenil | (sooner or later) | 21:36 |
| Aard | probably sitting at my bank, signing contracts and transfering obscene amounts of money | 21:36 |
| faenil | reading the log again it seems david actually mentioned using the mer bz | 21:37 |
| Aard | well, as long as we don't have that (+ convinced you guys to introduce some bits of jolla ci-proceduce) I'll have lots of additional pain when making releases, so, yes, it'll come | 21:37 |
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