Tuesday, 2018-02-27

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r0kk3rzrinigus: why did you fork hunspell onto github?14:32
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r0kk3rzrinigus: if you bothered to update it, you might as well submit it back :)14:33
rinigusr0kk3rz: hunspell is originally now in github. I didn't get any response, so I used the fastest way possible.14:33
rinigusr0kk3rz: to contribute back (which is a great idea), I need to figure out how mer repo is structured. at the time when I tried, upstream branch was not even working...14:34
rinigusr0kk3rz: if there is some doc on how to contribute to mer, please send me the reference14:35
rinigus^to such repos as hunspell14:35
r0kk3rzrinigus: not sure about the docs... but what I would do is fork that repo, add upstream as a submodule and remove that folder14:36
r0kk3rzbasically exactly what you did on github14:36
rinigusr0kk3rz: yes, that's easy to do. but it looks to me that mer is using full src dumps, not submodules for some reason. any comments on that from someone who knows...14:38
rinigusis there anyone around who would accept/reject such PR to hunspell mer package?14:39
r0kk3rzrinigus: yeah but thats not the preferred way anymore14:39
r0kk3rzlook at pvuorela's comments on that wrt raising a mer bug14:39
rinigusr0kk3rz: thank you very much! now the mechanism is clear. will do later a bit14:40
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M4rtinKrinigus: there are some contribution docs: https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Collaborative_Development#Contributing_The_Change15:32
M4rtinKrinigus: but it's pretty incomplete and does not cover rebasing/updates very well15:33
M4rtinKso I've also basically looked at previous merge requests when updating PyOtherSide15:33
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rinigusM4rtinK, thanks. I'll try to follow these15:52
M4rtinKthis should all be much easier, much better implemented & most importantly - much much more routine15:55
r0kk3rztbh updating libnice was fairly painless15:56
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: now imagine you are a new contributor with no prior Sailfish OS experience (maybe some general Linux contributor experience)15:57
r0kk3rzsure it does help that i know basically everybody and they know me :)15:58
M4rtinKI think the learning curve is still unnecessarily high15:58
M4rtinKbut in any case it's encouraging seeing some contributions happening :)15:59
r0kk3rzmaybe i should write something on mer-wiki16:00
tbrwell, it doesn't help that they often ignore stuff until it's so stale that merging it doesn't make sense. btdt curl16:01
r0kk3rzthat might be better than it used to be...16:01
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: I really hope so16:02
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: I basically had to drag the PyOtherSide update through community meeting to make someone finally merge it16:03
M4rtinKback then16:03
M4rtinKcombined with multiple ongoing release stream that are not public16:03
M4rtinKyou can (and generally will) hit more delays after the change is merged16:04
r0kk3rzthese days they seem to be operating on a longer release cycle, which might help things16:04
M4rtinKIIRC the PyOtherSide update got release about four months after it was finally merged due to how the update releases aligned16:04
r0kk3rzthat doesnt sound so bad :P16:06
M4rtinKin the end, this can likely boil down to there being no community/rolling release distro16:06
M4rtinKwith RHEL you also only get non trivial fixes every ~half a year, but that kinda different target community16:07
M4rtinKand you have Fedora, where you can update many things in a stable release and about anything in Rawhide16:08
tbrwell, there are no other entities consuming "Mer", so it has become de facto sailfish16:08
tbr(I'm deliberately ignoring Nemo)16:08
r0kk3rzyeah well if we had everything working properly on OBS you'd just be able to add the mer-core:devel repo and away you go16:08
M4rtinKshame the ~2013 Nemo seamed like a good candidate for such community distro16:08
M4rtinKthen all Jolla devs stopped working and it lost critical mass16:09
tbrdid anyone try to push for an updated qt in the end?16:09
tbrthe 5.8/5.9 stuff I had seemed to work reasonably well16:09
r0kk3rzfor nemo? yeah locusf was doing some work on 5.10 i thought16:09
M4rtinKit looks like there could be a Qt update planed16:12
M4rtinKit was mentioned on the sailfish3 page16:12
M4rtinKwithout further details16:12
r0kk3rzyeah should be good!16:13
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riniguswhat I do wonder about mer is whether there is some independent body which makes the calls regarding package updates, addition of new packages, which licenses are acceptable.16:51
r0kk3rzafaik not really16:52
r0kk3rzalmost all custodians are jolla employees16:53
M4rtinK"normal" community distros have voted packaging/steering committees that maintain packaging and other guidelines16:55
rinigusI guess it's understandable (probably Jolla pays the bills), but maybe we need to open up that. In particular, it would help to contribute to the development.16:56
M4rtinKmost importantly I'm not sure the guidelines (if any) are even public16:57
M4rtinKeven if they unilaterally set them, they need be written somewhere so people can follow them16:57
rinigusM4rtinK: even if they are public, it looks like those who want to contribute don't know about them :)16:58
M4rtinKI actually tried to become an official maintainer of PyOtherSide a while ago (like I am on Fedora) but I think it fizzled out on there being no process for non Jolla package maintainers at all16:58
tbrrinigus: mer is defacto no longer mer, but sailfish. Jolla is the sole user of this distro and its sole custodian.16:59
rinigusbut yes, if it's unilateral, would be helpful to get it stated. then we can also think of what do we want from such platform...16:59
M4rtinKthere is really many issues like this & technical dept that needs to be fixed for things to move forward17:00
rinigustbr: looks like it. surely they are the only (or main) users17:02
tbrand at some point they were running their own private mer fork mostly. There was an effort to fold this back into public mer, but I'm not sure if that was completed.17:03
rinigusbut I wonder if they want to open up this and let community to work on it too.17:03
tbrsailfish-core (aka mer) doesn't have any business priority so it doesn't get worked on outside of putting out fires in the form of security vulnerabilities17:04
tbropen source is not a business priority and doesn't have a measurable RoI, so don't expect anything. Those who have been around long enough know that.17:05
tbrI have this negative rant tone again, don't I? I guess I should just shut up again.17:06
r0kk3rztbr: have a beer :D17:06
tbrmmmmmm, beeer!17:07
tbrI still have two 10l containers of homebrew, should bottle one.17:07
rinigusprobably mer custodians are too busy in Spain ro think about it now :)17:12
r0kk3rzor as remote support17:12
rinigusI presume we can always roll out some distribution on top of sfos/mer with updated packages. just would prefer to work together on it.17:14
rinigusback to the original issue: I'll submit hunspeller update and let's see what I will learn from it :)17:15
lbtCan someone tell Mr_Doge I need his email - since I'm away now it's best to send me an email with his username too :)17:17
M4rtinKbeing fully open source can work (I work at Red Hat) but it's certainly not trivial to pull it off17:18
M4rtinKas evidenced by there not being many fully open source companies17:19
M4rtinKand proper cooperation with the community and upstream also also not for free, even if it brings significant benefits in the end17:20
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rinigusM4rtinK: you would know better. Although, when compared to mainstream linux distribution, we are very small community which could be of advantage in helping each other out17:30
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abransontbr: i think you're off the mark a bit there. work on the mer packages is more than just firefighting. new packages get added and upgraded for more than just security reasons.18:52
tbrabranson: I'd be happy to be proven wrong and shown that Jolla is properly maintaining Mer18:53
abransontbr: that's quite subjective though isn't it19:02
abransonit's nowhere near as up-to-date as the major distributions, but usually when it lags there's a good reason for it19:03
abransonit'd be great to get more non-jolla people contributing, but the problem is that everyone at jolla is busy with dealing with the packages for sailfish and there hasn't been much chance to engage with the community19:04
abransonM4rtinK made a kind offer to maintain pyotherside, and that's not been rejected. it's just that we don't really have a defined way of handling that, and deciding one is on the todo list of really busy people19:05
abransonthe most successful community thing right now is the cal/carddav thing that chris does, it'd be great to get more things like that going on. there's also the mer-contrib effort, but that's still starting out19:06
tbrabranson: just to rephrase. you are actually saying that jolla's business priorities are outside of mer and it only gets touched if it happens to be a dependency of such. (This probably sounds unkind, but I'm trying to establish where we are between our points)19:09
abransontbr: I don't think there is such a distinction between mer and sailfish as you're implying at all.19:11
abransonnot sure whether 'business priorities' is even a concept to apply here. if we talk about features, then the FOSS elements of it will go in Mer, while any non-FOSS bits go elsewhere in sailfish.19:12
tbrabranson: you made that distinction, that's why I picked it up. "everyone at jolla is busy with dealing with the packages for sailfish"19:12
abransontbr:hmm no you've misread that19:13
abransontbr: i meant that everyone's busy working on those packages rather than engaging with potential maintainers19:13
abransontoo busy doing the work to pass it on19:14
abransontbr: look at the activity here: https://git.merproject.org/groups/mer-core/activity19:14
r0kk3rzimo, sometimes you have to make the time for lower priority tasks even when really busy19:15
r0kk3rzotherwise low priority quickly becomes the never list19:15
abransonit doesn't really look like firefighting to me. it's the public side of sailfish development19:15
tbrindeed, it looks much better than it did the last time I looked19:16
abransonr0kk3rz: i think that will come, but don't forget that jolla is still very short of resources. they have to prioritize to survive.19:16
r0kk3rzi understand that, but unless they leverage what good will they have left, then it will evaporate19:17
tbrI'd say it's already boiled down a lot19:20
abransonboiled down?19:20
tbrthe community participation potential19:21
abransonto be honest, at this point no-one else has managed to make mobile linux sustainable yet, and pretty much everyone else who's tried has given up already19:21
abransoni think the priority has to be on survival. getting enough money in to cover all this so it gets done properly. unless that happens, it's doomed. i don't think something this big can be managed by a community alone.19:22
tbrI didn't claim that19:22
abransonI think if they get in a place where the books are balanced, and more stuff starts getting opened up then, then people will have a choice whether to keep supporting it or come back or whatever19:23
abransonand if they don't, then it's irrelevant anyway19:23
abransoni'd like to see any opportunity taken that engages more with community people, and I try to spot those when I can19:24
abransonbut I do respect the need to do things that bring in cash. not for profit, but rather survival.19:24
abransonit's easy to label anythng a company does that centres on business as profiteering, but sustainability brings in autonomy as well as dev salaries19:25
abransoni've seen both sides, and i'm a judgemental bastard, and I have no problem at all with their approach19:26
tbrwell, that's what I referred to as business priorities. survival is about the core priority for a business19:26
abransonright, and you're right that Jolla's business priority is to improve sailfish to make it more attractive to customers19:47
abransontbr: i'm just trying to say that it's completely wrong to say that mer isn't part of that19:49
tbrabranson: yes, and I'm happy that you've proven me wrong on that19:55
abransontbr: well i'm happy with that19:56
tbrabranson: still those priorities shape what happens and e.g. means that those in the community that would want to contribute face obstacles. I've spent enough time in the mobile world and on contracting that I do see where such priorities originate from. I don't need to agree with them or approve of them though.19:57
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abransontbr: I'm not asking you to. I just want to make sure you've got your facts straight.19:59
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