Thursday, 2019-06-13

sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 201908:00
merbotMeeting started Thu Jun 13 08:00:02 2019 UTC.  The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
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*** merbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"08:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave and respect the timingsies.08:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info08:00
*** merbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"08:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla08:00
lbt#info David Greaves; mer guy and sailor08:00
M4rtinK#info Martin Kolman, community & modRana development08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ jolla08:02
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ jolla08:02
r0kk3rz#info Lewis Rockliffe, community08:02
vknecht#info Vincent Knecht, community08:04
sledgesooh more visitors:)08:05
sledges#topic Wireguard (VPN) support directly in the Settings  ( ) (30min - asked by bionade24)08:06
*** merbot changes topic to "Wireguard (VPN) support directly in the Settings ( ) (30min - asked by bionade24) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"08:06
sledgesbionade24 looks AWOL08:06
sledgeswe'll just paste our answers for the record08:06
sledgesWe shall break it down question-by-question:08:06
sledges#info "Which Userpace Implementation should we use?"08:06
sledges#info Apologies, we are not sure08:06
sledges#info "Which compiler is the right for Rust or Go?"08:07
sledges#info Sorry, we cannot help here either08:07
sledges#info "Could we use the QrCode feature in the UI?"08:07
sledges#info Currently the VPN plugins for the settings app are implemented entirely in QML. They're essentially designed to send a dictionary of configuration options to connman, via VpnModel (see For an example, see the VPNC QML config UI elements in /usr/share/sailfish-vpn/vpnc on your device. You can pull in a08:07
sledges plugin that...08:07
sledges#info ...plugin that implements what you need (i.e. ZXing library) for scanning QrCodes by installing the shared libraries in /usr/lib/qt5/qml/Sailfish/. This won't get past harbour validation though.08:07
sledges#info Unless we're misunderstanding your plan here, to get all this to work seamlessly, you'll also need to create a connman plugin for Wireguard. Here's the code for the existing connman VPN plugins:
sledgeswe'll close this quickly, since the person who asked is not present08:09
r0kk3rzthe Go userspace would work i think08:10
r0kk3rzrust maybe not08:10
vknechtdid you think about adding wireguard support in kernel for official devices (if it's not already; didn't check...) ?08:10
r0kk3rztoo new08:11
vknechtor too conservative ? ;-)08:11
M4rtinKis Wireguard even in mainline yet ?08:11
vknechtjust asking, seen a bunch of LOS port using it08:11
r0kk3rzif you want to backport it to each kernel, then sure08:12
sledges#info <r0kk3rz> the Go userspace would work i think, rust maybe not08:13
vknechtit was getting close to be mainlined some months ago, maybe just a round or two yet08:13
M4rtinKin any case there seems to be a lot happening aroud the Wireguard project08:15
sledgesmore info from TJC from bionade24:08:16
sledges#info Why using the kernel module is difficult:
r0kk3rzin the past ive been able to throw on go arm binaries, and they just worked08:17
sledgesthanks for the comments, let's hope the author or someone else picks this up again in two weeks08:17
sledges#topic Scratchbox2 vs glibc; or, limitations of hooking of public api's; dockerization as a solution (30 min - asked by tortoisedoc)08:17
*** merbot changes topic to "Scratchbox2 vs glibc; or, limitations of hooking of public api's; dockerization as a solution (30 min - asked by tortoisedoc) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"08:17
* sledges looks around for tortoisedoc08:18
r0kk3rzlol tdoc, i dont know what you think docker is08:18
r0kk3rzbut a scratchbox replacement it is not08:18
sledgesit's a relevant topic, so we'll see it through, yet rules state you should be present08:19
lbtShall I ?08:20
sledges(i made an exception to bionade24 as they are a new person in community, tortoisedoc however isn't)08:20
sledges#info What is the plan on the scratchbox2? Currently it is part of the official SDK, but it appears it's limits are starting to show (see for example problems with hooking "internal" api's of glibc, which causes some libraries / api's / apps not to work properly (spawn api, llvm amongst others); supporting those will need carefully evaluation of the consequences as it might require patching of glibc).08:20
sledges#info Is docker considered a possible replacement? If so, is there a timeframe for it to land in the SDK?08:20
sledgesHere's Jolla's take on this question:08:20
sledges#info This question needs a little more clarification. sb2 is used to to bypass qemu emulation of certain executables during non-native builds. Docker does not provide any functionality comparable to sb2. sb2 works very well and we will continue to use it in this role.08:21
sledges#info Although it is mature, sb2 is a sophisticated tool and does interact deeply with the system (including glibc) so a degree of maintenance is required over time. This is by no means an undue burden given the benefits of the tool.08:21
sledges#info Docker is a (relatively new, complex and constantly changing) container technology; this role is provided by the cross-platform Virtualbox in the SDK. The community has provided native linux solutions to contain the SDK (eg chroot) and these offer benefits (lower overheads for parallel builds) but also disadvantages (exposure to different kernel versions or host security policies like selinux).08:21
sledgesgo ahead lbt:)08:21
lbtnot much to add - I think we're doing some docker experiments but the main issue is likely to be supporting it in the wild. VBox is really easy to support.08:23
M4rtinK/me would suggest using podman instead of Docker if one wants to build a new container based something08:23
lbtfwiw I personally found supporting docker on my local machine for my personal use to be so hard I stopped using it :D :D08:24
lbtM4rtinK: ah - but buzzword...08:24
r0kk3rzdocker is good because everything supports it08:24
flypigWhat's so painful about docker? I've not used it in earnest, but many people really swear by it.08:25
M4rtinKits basically Red Hats sane reimplementation of Docker, without a carzy daemon & need to run it all under root08:25
M4rtinK& its fully compatible with existing docker files08:25
r0kk3rz'sane reimplementation' ah so docker wasnt NIH compatible ;)08:26
lbtthere are a lot of issues - including networking and the bloody daemon08:26
M4rtinKat least that bloody daemon should not be there for podman AFAIK08:26
lbtit's great for supporting lots of dynamic containers08:26
lbtbut what we want is a single, simple container ... a chroot basically08:27
flypiga chroot that's compatible across all systems though.08:28
lbtthe main issue I see is that docker versions will vary so much over different distros and versions that support will be a killer08:28
flypigIncluding Windows and MacOs08:28
M4rtinKwhat about Mock then ?
lbtflypig: I hope we'd still support Vbox for those (and the 60% of linux that didn't work ;) )08:29
r0kk3rzvbox is fine tbh08:29
lbtr0kk3rz: it has issues with IO and poor cpu usage08:30
lbtbut I agree it does the job pretty well and with very little support cost08:30
M4rtinKMock is used for all regular Fedora/RHEL/Mageia package builds08:30
lbtM4rtinK: yeah - it's similar to the OBS/osc 'build' I think08:30
M4rtinKwell, asside from that out of tree kernel module it needs...08:30
M4rtinKlbt: yep, most likely similar08:31
lbtI used to use osc to create a chroot and then use that for the Mer CLI SDK08:31
lbtanyhow... rambling now ;)08:31
r0kk3rza jolla proided docker sdk would be nice though08:33
r0kk3rzcurrently the community provides one08:33
vknechtspeaking of OBS/osc, "osc repourls" returns hardcoded it seems...08:34
sledges10min remaining and we're drifting away to OBS;) since neither tdoc is here nor there was an assigned substitute, let's make general discussion longer a tad08:36
sledges#topic General discussion (25min)08:36
*** merbot changes topic to "General discussion (25min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"08:36
sledges#info action points review:
sledges#info evaluate possibility to mark apps as experimental08:37
sledges#info We have had some discussions about this internally. We might implement something like this in the future, but this is not considered a high priority as experimental apps can always use open repos. Instead, we plan on maturizing some APIs, which also means that it is possible for us to allow them in harbour.08:37
r0kk3rzso, when sailfish X for pinephone? ;)08:38
M4rtinKcheking what applications are popular on Open Repos & what APIs they are using could provide a good set08:39
sledgesspeaking of APIs..08:39
sledges#info evaluate possibility to allow systemd socket activation.08:39
sledges#info We are planning to create an API for this kind of functionality, but it will take time.08:39
M4rtinKand possibly even reaching out to the app authors to find out about the main Harbour pain point they have encountered & that prevented them from submitting their popular apps to the Jolla store08:40
M4rtinKsledges: just allowing shipping the needed (IRRC) unit files is not good enough ?08:42
tortoisedocduh just missed it08:42
tortoisedocsorry guys08:42
ViGeM4rtinK: allowing shipping the unit files opens too many ways to break the entire system08:43
M4rtinKunit files are simple ini files, it should not be hard to scan them and allow that one option08:44
r0kk3rzisnt that what QA is for?08:44
tortoisedocsledges : thanks for the info (saw from the logs); please be assured, I am trying to find a way forward to the limitations I faced when working on LLVM in mer08:44
tortoisedocim not saying SB2 is obsolete :)08:44
ViGeM4rtinK: Yes, that is indeed one way to do it08:45
M4rtinKnot to mention maybe whiteliating that one most popular native app on the whole platform and review it by hand when its updated ~once a month08:45
r0kk3rzpfft, who wants maps anyway08:46
tortoisedocsledges, lbt: thanks for clarifying about docker as well; what I can take from this is that SB2 is not going anywhere anytime soon08:46
M4rtinKit really seems like this is taking much too long for the impact it has & further reinforces the general feeling of neglect for Jolla Store and native app developers in general...08:46
lbttortoisedoc: +1 :)08:46
tortoisedocso a solution for the hooking problems has to be (yet) found08:46
bionade24sledges: Sorry, I have bad Internet connection and couldn't enter earlier. I saw the infos in the logs and will try to implement my wishes.08:47
flypigM4rtinK, I agree about the timing, but if openrepos didn't exist, the priority would likely be higher.08:48
r0kk3rzbionade24: if you want help, sing out in #sailfishos08:48
tortoisedoclbt, sledges : all in all, I think this narrows down the options on how to "fix" sb2 as well; either we patch glibc and replace internal api's with external counterparts (hairy and scary), or we handle hooking differently?08:49
tortoisedoc(if possible at all, that is)08:49
lbttortoisedoc: I think we need to look at your specific problem in more detail08:49
M4rtinKflypig: agreed, still a bit weird to see the official distribution channel being so neglected08:50
tortoisedoclbt : that'd be awesome; here's a detailed description with links to bug reports too :
bionade24r0kk3rz: Thanks, will do when necessary.08:50
lbttortoisedoc: we probably want a tjc entry - then we can link that to an internal bug08:51
lbthave a word with James when he's around08:51
tortoisedoclbt : I did a bug report on the old mer bugzilla (see the post for the links), does that help?08:51
tortoisedoc(a few reports actually)08:51
tortoisedocJames Bond? :)08:51
lbtit's good to have the info but the only links we can track are tjc08:52
tortoisedocmore posts required08:52
tortoisedocgot it08:52
lbtJust one is fine08:52
lbtmake sure james links it to an internal bug is all08:52
lbtall other stuff will not be tracked and only one tjc post - so ... keep it focuses08:53
flypigM4rtinK, yes, true. But I don't think it should be seen as a reflecting the importance of native devs!08:53
* sledges can do the same, James is too involved elsewhere these days08:53
pketolbt: mer bugs can be tracked08:54
sledges5mins remain08:55
sledgespketo: but that is only one way street08:55
sledgeson TJC community can see its internal status08:55
r0kk3rzyou can?08:55
sledgestracked by jolla -> released by jolla08:56
sledgesalso appears in release notes then08:56
r0kk3rznever seen a 'released by jolla' sounds fancy08:57
pketowell, ok :)08:57
vknecht3.1 news ? :-)08:57
sledgesTracked by Jolla (In release)08:57
r0kk3rzmust be time for qt5.9 right?08:57
tortoisedocokay ill roll my sleeves up an get a post readyu08:58
sledgesvknecht: hints from new strings:
lbtyou can link to the other resources - no need to make it massive08:58
sledgesalrighty, lunch for the Finns is approaching, moving on to next meeting time, thanks all for comments, please don't be late next time, or simply find a substitute not to be a lone wolf ;)09:01
sledges#topic next meeting time and date09:01
*** merbot changes topic to "next meeting time and date (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 13th June 2019)"09:01
flypigHmm. Isn't that today?09:02
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on 27th June 2019 at 08:00 UTC09:02
sledgesflypig: it's merbots topic suffix for every #topic, not a next date:)09:02
flypigOh, sorry. Impatient.09:02
sledgesJames will be back in action by then09:02
sledgescheers and gone!09:02
merbotMeeting ended Thu Jun 13 09:02:54 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)09:02
merbotMinutes (text):
*** merbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday June 13th 2019 at 08:00 UTC. Topics can be created here: - Tasks are written and followed here:"09:02
kimmoli#info me boldly late09:06
tortoisedocsledges : for tracking purposes :
*** Renault_ is now known as Renault11:37
* Eighth_Doctor waves12:41
Eighth_Doctorlbt: fwiw, you can use mock with OBS too :)12:43
Eighth_DoctorOBS supports mock as a build engine12:43
Eighth_Doctorand latest versions of mock support foreign architecture builds12:43
Eighth_Doctorthough mock supports it because dnf supports creating foreign architecture chroots12:44

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