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| aoeu | sorry if this comes out as harsh, but why is Jolla's GUI just as mediocre as other mobile OSes? | 13:54 |
|---|---|---|
| aoeu | it's still the same old WIMP interface | 13:54 |
| aoeu | you have the opportunity to make something truly better and different, yet you create just another poor clone | 13:55 |
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| Nicd- | WIMP? | 15:02 |
| Nicd- | what's your vision of something truly better and different? | 15:02 |
| Nicd- | seems WIMP means "windows, icons, menus, pointer", but I don't see much of the windows or pointers concept in SFOS | 15:04 |
| aoeu | let's start with a unified inbox | 15:22 |
| aoeu | in which goes every message you receive, pictures you capture, emails, notifications, recommendations, search results, etc. | 15:22 |
| Yaniel | that has nothing to do with the navigation paradigm though | 15:27 |
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| Yaniel | also I'd like to remind you that Jolla's GUI used to be more.. creative before SailfishOS 2.0 | 15:27 |
| Yaniel | apparently people didn't like it so they made it more like android | 15:28 |
| aoeu | this has something to do with the navigation paradigm | 15:30 |
| aoeu | you don't navigate between apps, you navigate between tasks/todo items/inbox items | 15:30 |
| aoeu | the launcher is an inbox | 15:30 |
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| Yaniel | sure, but WIMP is about *how* you do the navigating | 15:36 |
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| aoeu | don't get stuck on WIMP, it's the general term to describe the standard OS GUI with icons and apps and stuff | 15:38 |
| aoeu | either you don't innovate because you're afraid it would hurt adoption, either you don't innovate because there's no need (things are perfect as is), either you don't innovate because you don't know how | 15:39 |
| aoeu | i don't know which is the case | 15:39 |
| Nicd- | SFOS was more innovative before | 15:44 |
| Nicd- | people didn't like it | 15:44 |
| aoeu | what kind of people? close-minded people or even early adopters? | 15:46 |
| aoeu | in one case, do you really want them as users? | 15:46 |
| aoeu | in the other, why not learn from those criticism and make something innovative but better | 15:46 |
| Nicd- | who cares what kind of people? people are who you are making the prouct for | 15:46 |
| Nicd- | as a business you can't just say "well we don't want those customers anyway" | 15:46 |
| Nicd- | there's a reason why the desktop paradigm still exists: it works for people. I'm thinking we're reaching some sort of equilibrium on mobile too | 15:48 |
| aoeu | what's the purpose of Sailfish OS? | 15:48 |
| aoeu | maybe i just don't understand it | 15:48 |
| aoeu | i thought the goal was to make a better OS | 15:48 |
| aoeu | but perhaps i'm wrong | 15:48 |
| Nicd- | "better" | 15:48 |
| Nicd- | is the goal of others to be "worse" then? :D | 15:49 |
| Yaniel | I'm sure it's one goal | 15:49 |
| Yaniel | but for a company "get more customers" is a pretty vital goal | 15:49 |
| aoeu | Nicd-: old people use the others, they can't really do anything radical | 15:51 |
| aoeu | Nicd-: so they settle for mediocre | 15:51 |
| aoeu | and then SFOS comes in, and replicates that mediocrity | 15:51 |
| aoeu | and then i'm mad | 15:51 |
| Nicd- | there's no linear scale of "better" and "worse" | 15:51 |
| Nicd- | if you think that you are thinking too simple | 15:51 |
| aoeu | well, some things are objectively worse than others | 15:52 |
| Nicd- | not many things | 15:52 |
| Nicd- | my wife uses iOS and sure she can't do some things I do on Android. but it's "better" for her because she gets what she wants done very well, it feels natural to her. I don't think she would gain much by changing whereas she would have to endure the learning process. she never really got the hang of my Jolla while I had it, not because she couldn't learn it but because she didn't want to, because the | 15:55 |
| Nicd- | "innovative" stuff like gestures didn't offer anything she needed | 15:55 |
| Nicd- | personally I loved the gesture system in SFOS, but I switched to Android eventually because things just worked | 15:55 |
| Nicd- | and I realise I don't really miss the gestures nowadays | 15:55 |
| Yaniel | I miss them a lot | 15:56 |
| aoeu | it's not enough to just add gestures, that's not a good enough reason for most to get over the learning curve | 15:56 |
| Yaniel | tapping on a touchscreen is and remains infuriating | 15:56 |
| Yaniel | way too inaccurate - or a colossal waste of space | 15:56 |
| Nicd- | I have fingerprint reader gestures now, it's nice | 15:56 |
| aoeu | what i'm proposing is 10x improvement over iOS and Android | 15:57 |
| Nicd- | according to whom? | 15:57 |
| Nicd- | still don't know what you're proposing, any pictures? have you done research with users?` | 15:57 |
| Yaniel | according to the salesman, as usual | 15:57 |
| aoeu | i'll have to create mockups and a blog post | 15:57 |
| Nicd- | being "innovative" really comes at a cost, btw | 15:58 |
| aoeu | research with users, i don't think is that important | 15:58 |
| aoeu | Nicd-: what cost | 15:58 |
| Yaniel | it's not important no | 15:58 |
| Nicd- | first the cost of planning and implementing something totally new, then the cost of onboarding users | 15:58 |
| Yaniel | at least if you don't care whether anyone will actually use it | 15:58 |
| Nicd- | Jolla already struggled with the cost aspect because they had so much of everything else to do | 15:58 |
| Nicd- | like the whole OS | 15:59 |
| aoeu | i think doing the whole OS is a waste of time | 15:59 |
| aoeu | i'd just build on top of Android | 15:59 |
| Nicd- | then you don't share their vision | 16:00 |
| aoeu | heck, start with an Android launcher even | 16:00 |
| aoeu | what's their vision? | 16:00 |
| Yaniel | jolla did start with an android launcher | 16:00 |
| aoeu | also, if it's so much better people will all adopt it | 16:00 |
| Yaniel | in case you've missed it | 16:00 |
| aoeu | then i get bought by Google | 16:00 |
| aoeu | Yaniel: i've missed | 16:00 |
| Nicd- | I think some of the big points were: openness, privacy focus, independence from other OSes, full linux system, spiritual successor of Maemo/MeeGo | 16:03 |
| Nicd- | not sure if "being innovative in the UI" was ever up there, but I don't work for them | 16:03 |
| aoeu | "being innovative in the UI" not being up there would explain everything | 16:05 |
| aoeu | it's a hacker OS for hackers | 16:05 |
| Nicd- | so what you have to offer is a totally untested, unresearched, totally new UI paradigm, but you're 100 % sure it will be much better than everything there is | 16:06 |
| aoeu | i've been told to talk to you as i want to make a better OS, but if the community's goal aren't aligned with mine, i'll look elsewhere | 16:06 |
| aoeu | Nicd-: it's not difficult to tell that something will be better when looking at its design, is it? | 16:06 |
| Nicd- | well I mean you could have started "I want to collaborate with SFOS development, I have these UI concepts" instead of "why is SFOS shit" :D | 16:07 |
| Nicd- | people have totally different ideas of what is "better" | 16:07 |
| Nicd- | based on your description I probably wouldn't think yours is better | 16:07 |
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| merman | I think nicd makes a good point | 19:03 |
| merman | aoeu: I'm not knocking you for wanting to try new things but I personally would not use a unified inbox because I think it would get too spammy, if you ended up separating the notifications into types then you'd end up with pretty much the same issue as before | 19:05 |
| merman | besides the current notifications paradigm is more or less a "universal inbox" since everything notifies to it, including email etc | 19:06 |
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| aoeu | aguaman: notifications don't hold the full content of the message | 19:11 |
| aoeu | notifications can't be snoozed, forwarded, split, etc. | 19:12 |
| aoeu | not everything ends up as a notification (i.e., pictures taken) | 19:12 |
| aoeu | e.g.* | 19:12 |
| aoeu | every message on IRC doesn't get added as a notification | 19:13 |
| aoeu | an inbox item and a notification are different things | 19:13 |
| mal | you really want everything as notifications? I would never want that | 19:14 |
| aoeu | it's not spammy if your inbox only shows things that are relevant to you in this particular context, sorted by relevance | 19:14 |
| aguaman | aoeu: I don't know what you mean by split but why wouldn't you just suggest those features? | 19:14 |
| aguaman | (for notifications I mean) | 19:14 |
| aoeu | i want everything to be a card | 19:15 |
| aoeu | the inbox is a stack of cards | 19:15 |
| aguaman | also I'm not sure why you'd want a notification that you took a picture...would this be an event log/syslog type thing? | 19:15 |
| aoeu | you can organize those cards, bundle them, split them, merge them, send them, etc. | 19:15 |
| aoeu | you take a picture, it creates a card, where does it get added? | 19:15 |
| aoeu | it makes sense that it should get added to our inbox stack | 19:16 |
| aoeu | so that you can then process it | 19:16 |
| aoeu | is it a receipt, a thing you want to fix/purchase, a nutrition label of something you ate, a beautiful landscape, a thing that you want to share with your friend, ettc. | 19:17 |
| aguaman | so if I spend the day at the zoo taking pictures, I then have to go through my inbox later and decide where I want them sent rather than having them just saved to my photos directory? | 19:17 |
| aoeu | yes | 19:17 |
| aguaman | I apologize if I'm being obtuse, I'm just puzzled why this would be better | 19:17 |
| aoeu | but they can be bundled together and sent to some album easily | 19:17 |
| aguaman | as it is right now in any os I've seen they default to the general photos directory and then you can choose to go in and move them later if you wish | 19:18 |
| aoeu | you can even bundle videos, recording of animal sounds, your ticket/pass/entry, etc. in that "zoo 2018" stack | 19:18 |
| aoeu | your parking location, whatever you want | 19:18 |
| aoeu | the default doesn't make sense as you use your camera for more than just taking pictures | 19:19 |
| aguaman | this is something photos apps currently do though... | 19:19 |
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| aoeu | you might want to snap a qr code, bar code, movie ticket, wifi password, foreign text, etc. these things don't belong in a photo album | 19:20 |
| aguaman | not on sailfish, but on my day to day phone, I can pull up photos and videos by date or geo location easily | 19:20 |
| aoeu | you can't add your parking geocoordinates or zoo entry ticket to a photo album | 19:20 |
| aguaman | sure you can -- photos have exif data and the zoo ticket is also just another picture | 19:21 |
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| aoeu | that's a hack | 19:22 |
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| aoeu | you're not storing your parking location or ticket, but pictures of them | 19:22 |
| aoeu | those are not the same things | 19:23 |
| aguaman | I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure how it would be more productive for me as a user to have to sort everything manually as a mandatory process rather than putting it in a default queue/album so I can do it later if I need to | 19:23 |
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| aguaman | oh ok I see what you're saying, the "album" would not be a photo album, it'd just be a bunch of stuff sorted by the album's "tag" applied to it | 19:24 |
| aoeu | something like that yes | 19:24 |
| aguaman | I like that idea but maybe it could be something like an indexing service that you can search in local files/apps with and then you could apply tags to the search results | 19:25 |
| aoeu | my point is that a mobile device should make it SUPER easy to capture things (geocoordinates, audio, video, text input, drawing input, nfc tag, proximity beacon), then process them (that's a voice command, that's a song, that's a plant, that's a qr code to some website, that's a movie ticket, that's a book, that's a restaurant), and then let you process them | 19:27 |
| aoeu | this is based on the GTD methodology | 19:27 |
| aoeu | there's a 5-step process | 19:27 |
| aoeu | capture, clarify, organize, reflect, engage | 19:27 |
| aoeu | i think it's the perfect workflow, and i'd like to make it built in mobile OSes | 19:28 |
| aguaman | are there any examples of this being used already in an os? | 19:30 |
| aguaman | I like what I'm hearing except for the part where you have to manually interact with all of them, unless I'm misunderstanding that part | 19:31 |
| aoeu | related things get bundled automatically | 19:34 |
| aoeu | in all cases, you need to manually review what you captured (or what was captured for you, aka recommendations or incoming messages/notifications) | 19:36 |
| aoeu | in most cases, it's just one swipe | 19:36 |
| aoeu | for each item, you usually snooze (remind me later) or complete (archive) | 19:37 |
| aoeu | here's the inbox processing flow: https://flow-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/GTD-Flowchart-654x1024.jpg | 19:38 |
| aoeu | you can defer, delegate, or do | 19:38 |
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| aguaman | but why make manual review obligatory? if you think of this universal inbox as a stack of sorts then there really isn't any reason background apps can't pull things off of it to process | 20:02 |
| aoeu | some things will be automated, but there's a limit to what a machine can infer | 20:11 |
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