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| keithzg[m] | Any news on actually deigning to allow non-European folks to purchase Sailfish X? | 00:22 |
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| phlixi | deigning? | 01:12 |
| phlixi | probably not^^ | 01:12 |
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| keithzg[m] | Dave: If Jolla doesn't want me to buy it from them, why should I go out of my way? :P | 04:06 |
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| Nicd- | I actually saw a Jolla 1 on the bus to work today | 06:52 |
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| keithzg[m] | Nicd-: Whoa, a live sighting? | 07:15 |
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| Nicd- | yep, I was surprised | 07:17 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: where are you waiting for Sailfish X? | 07:17 |
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| keithzg[m] | abranson: Canada | 07:18 |
| abranson | Hmm, north america is a bit tricky to sell such things in. | 07:20 |
| abranson | But it's important to know that Jolla would dearly love to sell it to you. It's all legal hurdles, some of which aren't easily overcome for such a small company. | 07:22 |
| keithzg[m] | Howso? Non-physical sales to Canada are presumed by Canadian law to take place in the country of origin (hence I don't pay GST on movies and apps). | 07:23 |
| keithzg[m] | Any company who does not have a significant physical presence in Canada is under no obligation to follow Canadian laws. When I buy such a good, I'm considered to be importing it and all legal considerations fall on me. | 07:24 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: No idea, IANAL, but I know that the target is to sell in as many countries as possible. But someone has to look into the legal situation in each country and make sure the coast is clear before it can happen. | 07:25 |
| keithzg[m] | (In theory this means everyone has to pay sales taxes themselves on stuff where companies like Google haven't charged, although in practice nobody declares any of it.) | 07:25 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: has canada managed to keep all the software patent trolling out of its territory? | 07:26 |
| keithzg[m] | *shrug* they're doing a very uninspiring job of it, and I mean they've taken my money before! | 07:26 |
| keithzg[m] | I've just sadly yet to get anything but a t-shirt out of it :( | 07:26 |
| keithzg[m] | abranson: Irrelevant, the sale isn't taking place in Canada. Jolla would only be in the same legal position they'd be in if I physically went over to Europe, bought the license while I was there, then flew back. | 07:27 |
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| keithzg[m] | Which in theory then is something they have to already worry about. | 07:27 |
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| abranson | keithzg[m]: if that's the case then it should be easy. but someone has to verify that there really is no such liability. | 07:28 |
| keithzg[m] | Presumably they already did that with the tablet which ran SailfishOS and they sold to me (just sadly I wasn't one of the ones who got one). | 07:29 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: I think phones are an entirely different ballgame | 07:29 |
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| keithzg[m] | abranson: If they were selling a phone, sure. But they aren't. | 07:31 |
| keithzg[m] | Basically, I don't buy the explanation at all, I think they've just chosen a very lacklustre payment provider :P | 07:32 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: I see what you're saying, but it'll need to be legally verified. The risk is very high. | 07:32 |
| abranson | If you wade into a country and start selling something that breaches regulations, it would be very bad | 07:33 |
| keithzg[m] | That's just ridiculously untrue, particularly in the sake of Canada as I've already specifically explained. And I really can't think of any other software vendor who has been so agoraphobic! And Jolla has never, to my knowledge, expressed that such paranoia is behind their limited sales, even if they *are* being that silly. | 07:36 |
| keithzg[m] | Selling phone hardware is a tremendously different matter, but a tablet is not too far behind that and they were previously willing to do so. This is merely the software portion thereof. | 07:37 |
| keithzg[m] | You really don't have any of the same regulatory hurdles when selling software on the internet as you do shipping physical products with radios into a country. | 07:38 |
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| keithzg[m] | (I actually bought a Jolla by way of getting it sent to people I knew in Europe---Jolla was perfectly willing to take my Canadian money that time :P But it also made perfect sense that they didn't sell it, since there's huge regulatory hurdles for anything with a radio, particularly a cellular radio. And it didn't even work on my cell carrier, I just really wanted something to play with and didn't want to give up the | 07:44 |
| keithzg[m] | dream of the N9!) | 07:44 |
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| keithzg[m] | ("didn't sell it" with shipping to Canadian addresses, I mean, obviously they did *sell* it to me. I still dig it out from time to time and marvel at how much nicer SailffishOS is than Android :P) | 07:45 |
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| abranson | keithzg[m]: I think if things were as simple as you claim, you'd already be able to buy it. Maybe Canada is a special case, in which case you should explain the situation to Jolla and it might speed things up a bit. But it would certainly be very foolhardy to sell it everywhere without checking. There is definitely liability there - even within the EU there are differences in radio regulations that have to be supported in | 08:15 |
| abranson | software. | 08:15 |
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| keithzg[m] | abranson: And those different radio regulations don't really apply to the *software* you run on the phone. And hell, if that's really the problem then just release a version non-EU folks can buy that doesn't touch the baseband during installation, done. Anyways I'd have a lot more patience for this if Jolla would just actually say something officially about it. So far all they've said is that it's about their payment | 08:29 |
| keithzg[m] | provider, and I'll take their word for it; this is silly, and their payment provider being silly is a believable, if unfortunate, scenario! | 08:29 |
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| r0kk3rz | keithzg[m]: its probably one of those marginal returns kind of things | 08:42 |
| r0kk3rz | it'll cost X to figure out the regulatory nightmare and they expect to sell Y | 08:42 |
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| keithzg[m] | I don't really believe it. They've theoretically already figured out almost all of it for the tablet back whem that was gonna happen, and there really isn't much regulation on software alone. It's not like every app developer has to hire a lawyer in every country in the world to put up software on an app store or their website . . . | 08:58 |
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| r0kk3rz | they backed down from CA/US orders fairly quickly, id assume they did that for a reason | 09:01 |
| pketo_ | well, I think that is not true, it is completely different situation than some random app in an app store | 09:02 |
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| keithzg[m] | pketo_: I mean, yes and no. It is just software in the end, and they could always just ship it sans baseband firmware to fully avoid any regulatory worries. | 09:07 |
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| keithzg[m] | The plans for this year apparently include India, countries in Asia, and Latin America, and there's partnerships in China and Russia, so it's on pace for Canada and the U.S. to be the only excluded markets soon :P | 09:20 |
| r0kk3rz | most of those are OEM partnerships though | 09:22 |
| keithzg[m] | Sure, I'm expanding the scope of my lament from "why not SailfishX?" to "yeesh why can every other country in the world officially get SailfishOS?" ;) | 09:23 |
| keithzg[m] | And when the blog posts say stuff like "we increased the general availability of Sailfish OS for the world by announcing Sailfish X" it's just kindof a head scratcher. | 09:24 |
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| abranson | keithzg[m]: there was no way to buy Sailfish in Europe when Sailfish X was launched | 09:27 |
| keithzg[m] | abranson: So then it's "made Sailfish OS available in Europe again", that's all | 09:28 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah basically, but you expect PR to take a bit of poetic licence | 09:29 |
| keithzg[m] | Expect? Sure. Give 'em shit for it? Also sure :P | 09:29 |
| abranson | keithzg[m]: no, not really all. as you said there are plans to expand it further | 09:30 |
| keithzg[m] | At this point I'm almost regretful that I gave up my first tablet refund. Particularly since it's not like you have folks like stskeeps around anymore starting useful projects that have lives outside of SailfishOS like libhybris :( | 09:31 |
| abranson | but it's just going to take time | 09:31 |
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| r0kk3rz | maybe not starting, but contibuting for sure | 09:34 |
| keithzg[m] | abranson: None of the plans detailed in the New Year's blog post mention expansion of Sailfish X, as r0kk3rz correctly pointed out they're about partnerships. | 09:35 |
| keithzg[m] | If you're seeing anything said anywhere about Saiflish X expanding beyond Europe, please point that out to me! I'd like some hope! | 09:35 |
| keithzg[m] | r0kk3rz: Oh? I haven't been following things closely for a while, but certainly from the outside as someone paying a lot of attention to Linux and Qt development I can't say I've seen any sign of life from Jolla. | 09:39 |
| keithzg[m] | So at very least things haven't filtered into the KDE world and such like they used to in the N900/N9 and early Jolla days. | 09:40 |
| r0kk3rz | for eg. plasma mobile is using droidmedia which abranson has been putting a lot of effort into | 09:47 |
| r0kk3rz | so yeah, theres some things happening here and there | 09:47 |
| r0kk3rz | iirc ofonos dualsim support was mostly done by jolla people | 09:48 |
| keithzg[m] | Fair enough! I was hoping so, I just really hadn't seen anything filter through. | 09:48 |
| r0kk3rz | and there was a reasonable amount of Qt stuff merged before the jump to qt5.6 i thought | 09:49 |
| keithzg[m] | 'tis precisely why I didn't claim my initial tablet refund, we really need non-Android device work done and there's very few people out there other than Jolla paying anyone to do that sort of work (particularly now that Canonical pulled out, and they never seemed wholehearted anyways and were doing weird things like Mir that weren't so helpful to the rest of the ecosystem). | 09:51 |
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| keithzg[m] | r0kk3rz: Yeah, I definitely remember lots of Jolla-associated work back around Qt 5.6. I guess that's one of the main things that had me feeling like Jolla was 'missing', since I used to see so much! Some of that is probably me having done a lot less Qt app development since then though, hah | 09:54 |
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| r0kk3rz | ideally they dont need to make lots of contributions to qt because it works :P | 09:57 |
| keithzg[m] | If wishes were fishes ;) Qt is great, but nothing is ever perfect! But yeah, SailfishOS isn't the only software product shipping Qt+Wayland anymore, for instance, so I suppose there's a lot less lonely work Jolla has to do these days eh? | 09:59 |
| keithzg[m] | It may have been less physically impressive than the N9, but holding the Jolla 1 for the first time it was that same feeling of glimpsing the future :D | 10:04 |
| keithzg[m] | (Hell, it's still the future, I'm still not running Wayland on my desktop) | 10:06 |
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| abranson | keithzg[m]: Hang on in there. The future is still coming :) | 11:19 |
| r0kk3rz | by definition, isnt it always? :P | 11:25 |
| r0kk3rz | hopefully this china-phone is good though | 11:26 |
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| keithzg[m] | abranson: :) | 11:37 |
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