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| pdanek | Guys | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| pdanek | what about the rumors about Sailfish/Russia? | 00:06 |
| pdanek | any more details? | 00:06 |
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| Lipevakala | temmi_hoo: ----------- | 03:53 |
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| tiwake | http://gadgets.ndtv.com/intex-aqua-fish-3345 | 04:25 |
| tiwake | looks like I'm two days old on that news | 04:27 |
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| coderus | pdanek: sailfish will be developed in russia, no rumors | 06:02 |
| coderus | https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ищу-настоящий-мобильных-разработчиков-в-российский-os-eyges-2000 | 06:02 |
| Stskeeps | coderus: well, there's no problem in adding more people across the world | 06:03 |
| Stskeeps | sailfish development doesn't -move- to russia, it just adds more people across the world like we already have | 06:03 |
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| coderus | Stskeeps: but it will add a lot more people :) | 06:53 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 06:53 |
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| narchi4 | how do i get refund | 09:28 |
| ggabriel | what for? | 09:29 |
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| narchi4 | tablet | 09:34 |
| ggabriel | I don't think they've given instructions yet | 09:39 |
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| phlixi | afaik the current instruction is "wait for mail" | 09:45 |
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| coderus | i like how the things happening | 10:04 |
| coderus | soon we will make decision about tablets | 10:05 |
| coderus | soon we will send last batch | 10:05 |
| coderus | soon we will refund you | 10:05 |
| coderus | soon we will send emails :D | 10:05 |
| r0kk3rz | soon | 10:08 |
| phlixi | soon we will say son | 10:08 |
| r0kk3rz | narchi4: are you igg or pre-order? | 10:08 |
| phlixi | soon we will say soon | 10:08 |
| Helle | well, if they move the dates one more time I will have to consider filing for fraud | 10:09 |
| pp_ | heh, my tablet is already in germany :D | 10:09 |
| pdanek | coderus: Stskeeps: How many more developers in Russia are we speaking about? 50? 100? | 10:09 |
| r0kk3rz | Helle: you would have to prove that they were deliberately misleading people, which is probably difficult | 10:09 |
| r0kk3rz | from the jolla sailors i have met personally, i dont think they would continue to work for a company that was deliberately misleading people | 10:10 |
| phlixi | and also probably wrong | 10:10 |
| phlixi | it might be (for some very) unfortunate, but i dont think its a fraud at all | 10:11 |
| phlixi | they woulndt have developed sailfish after the igg | 10:11 |
| Helle | well, it's fraudulent to use the money for anything other then the tablet, so if the money currently doesn't exist anymore, there is your fraud | 10:11 |
| pdanek | Is dual-SIM functionality already supported in Sailfish on Fairphone? | 10:11 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, we all went without wages for 3 months to do a fraud, that's right.. | 10:11 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:11 |
| Helle | anyway, I don't want to do it | 10:12 |
| ggabriel | safest thing to do is not expect the money at all | 10:12 |
| Helle | but it's money I would have bought a different tablet for by now | 10:12 |
| phlixi | Helle this was discussed already more than 100 times, developing the tablet was developing sailfish, thus it was used to develop the tablet... | 10:12 |
| ggabriel | since that's what you signed up for anyway | 10:12 |
| phlixi | Helle: developing a tablet costs nothing, there are thousands alreaedy developed ready buy, what you need is the software to run on those tablets | 10:13 |
| phlixi | reday to buy* | 10:13 |
| ggabriel | i'm personally happy that my contribution did a little bit of a difference to keep sfos alive | 10:13 |
| ggabriel | otherwise we'd have android and ios | 10:13 |
| phlixi | its to late to complain now Helle, you already backed it... | 10:14 |
| phlixi | meybe you learned to not blindly back stuff on igg/kickstarter... | 10:14 |
| phlixi | i am happy i backed iggg, it kept sf alive... | 10:15 |
| phlixi | (i guess) | 10:15 |
| ggabriel | every penny/cent helps :) | 10:15 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: it also opened the door for tablet community ports | 10:15 |
| Helle | phlixi: well, I did not blindly back it, but from how it was sold to me, it was hardware development cost primarily | 10:16 |
| ggabriel | Helle: where did you deduce that from? the campaign clearly said that sfos 2.0 was going to be developed | 10:16 |
| ggabriel | and it never gave any idea of priorities/money distribution for hw/sw | 10:16 |
| Helle | ggabriel: yes, yet 90% of the IGG page talked about HW | 10:16 |
| Helle | and tech specs and such | 10:16 |
| r0kk3rz | i guess they could have been more up-front about the work involved in the project | 10:17 |
| ggabriel | ok, what people understand isn't jolla's responsibility | 10:17 |
| phlixi | Helle: as i already wrote above, harware delevopment IS DEVELOPING SOFTWARE, | 10:17 |
| r0kk3rz | rather than opening up about it after the project had basically failed | 10:17 |
| ggabriel | Helle: I suggest you try to port a device, you'll get a clearer view of how things work | 10:17 |
| ggabriel | actually, just read the hadk pdf | 10:17 |
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| ggabriel | it's easy to criticise something that failed and speak in hindsight | 10:18 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: for me the sniff test is if people feel like they've been mislead. and more than a few people have expressed this | 10:18 |
| phlixi | Helle so maybe you didnt feel blindly, but you actually where if you asumed what you claim now | 10:18 |
| mal-_ | pdanek: dual-sim is not yet supported on fp2 | 10:19 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz: well, thats partly true, but if someone is not able to tell the difference between red and blue, you say here have this blue thing and he expects a red thing, then claims fraud... | 10:20 |
| phlixi | i think you get the idea | 10:20 |
| ggabriel | r0kk3rz: people will always feel like that if the project failed | 10:20 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: this is why i said more than one person. | 10:20 |
| r0kk3rz | not everyone reads everything printed | 10:20 |
| ggabriel | even after reading things carefully, they'll feel betrayed | 10:21 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz: well, there is a lot of people that dont know the difference between red and blue | 10:21 |
| ggabriel | i'm colour blind :P | 10:21 |
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| r0kk3rz | but if multiples of people start saying the same thing, then maybe there was a lack of adequate communication | 10:21 |
| phlixi | correct, and those are the ones | 10:21 |
| phlixi | ggabriel: that doesnt count, yuo then cant tell the difference if you get the wrong one :D | 10:21 |
| r0kk3rz | im not saying fraud has occured, just a lack of proper communication | 10:21 |
| ggabriel | I have to disagree with that r0kk3rz | 10:21 |
| ggabriel | if you compare this to other project, and successful ones, level of communication was similar | 10:22 |
| ggabriel | the issue is the outcome | 10:22 |
| r0kk3rz | if project is successful nobody cares what was said | 10:23 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz: and i think a lot of people complaining ESPECIALLY those who say "but i backed hardware and you developed software" are totally wrong, they dont get it. and those are the people that whould not read anything, they just cry like babies because they did not get what they WANTED, not what they paid for | 10:23 |
| ggabriel | that's exactly my point | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | the real test is when things fail, how people feel afterwards | 10:23 |
| ggabriel | they'll feel bad, won't they? | 10:23 |
| ggabriel | and betrayed and whatnot | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | bad is not required to be betrayed | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | bad can just be disapointed | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | i was disapointed, but i dont feel betrayed | 10:24 |
| ggabriel | but it's up to you to turn from bad to betrayed or disappointed :P | 10:24 |
| ggabriel | i feel betrayed by all those people buying ios/android instead of jolla | 10:24 |
| ggabriel | so I blame them :P | 10:24 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: correct some people are just children, and cry when they dont get their toy | 10:24 |
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| r0kk3rz | i dont pay much attention to people like that | 10:24 |
| ggabriel | well, a lot of us are like that | 10:25 |
| phlixi | well you did, that exactly the Helle type... | 10:25 |
| ggabriel | it's ok to be emotional every once in a while | 10:25 |
| hemppis | i already got my money back from the tablet | 10:25 |
| ggabriel | hemppis: but you preordered, didn't you? | 10:25 |
| hemppis | yea | 10:25 |
| ggabriel | very different story :) | 10:26 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: i have not seen Helle overly complain of betrayal or throw tantrums like a few on the blog | 10:26 |
| hemppis | yea, waa in the last batch | 10:26 |
| hemppis | was | 10:26 |
| ggabriel | r0kk3rz: lol, thanks for saying "throw tantrums", instant image of toddler kicking on the floor | 10:26 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: but i disagree, not everyone is a hardware/software developer, not everyone knows what goes into these things, this is why communication is important | 10:27 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz but those should not claim that it was wrong to devlop software | 10:27 |
| r0kk3rz | ggabriel: this was exactly the picture i get from some of the people on the blog | 10:27 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz: if someone has no clue, he should not say "i was betrayed, i backed hardware, money was spent for software" | 10:28 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz thats the whole point i am talking about the whole time | 10:28 |
| phlixi | because then its just baby cry | 10:28 |
| Helle | r0kk3rz: well, the main issue I am now annoyed with is not so much the lack of product (which, in my IGG still says, is a tablet, not a OS for a tablet, but sure), but also the lack of a proper timeline for getting the money back that has now been promised | 10:29 |
| phlixi | Helle sure it says "tablet" because thats what (if nothing went wrong) you would get, but in order to make the tablet, the work that needs to be done, is developing the software that runs on the tablet... | 10:30 |
| r0kk3rz | phlixi: i guess its also a case of "whats left" | 10:32 |
| r0kk3rz | which in this instance, is an OS which helps Jollas agenda, and not much for the backers | 10:32 |
| phlixi | Helle: and the timeline, well, yeah, thats not nice from jolla, just think about every timing they promise" ok, lets double tripple or quadrupel this, maybe that will fit", ... | 10:32 |
| r0kk3rz | but if you flip it around, and they ship a blank tablet with keys and tools to put android on, and jolla takes the hit, thats a different story | 10:32 |
| r0kk3rz | sure the full project requires both these things, and thats cool. but at the end of the day this failed project aids jolla more than its backers | 10:33 |
| phlixi | well, if they actually refund, you can buy a cheap nexus and have the same | 10:33 |
| r0kk3rz | the key there is if | 10:34 |
| r0kk3rz | they havent committed to a full refund | 10:34 |
| phlixi | i dont mind | 10:34 |
| ggabriel | they did but depending on finance | 10:37 |
| ggabriel | so keep buying jolla stuff or you may not get a refund :P | 10:37 |
| ggabriel | and we'll be left with ios/android woohoo | 10:37 |
| r0kk3rz | ggabriel: saying you will do something with conditions applied is not a commitment | 10:38 |
| r0kk3rz | its more a 'we will maybe do this if we can' | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | semantics | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | you can commit depending on stuff | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | I do it all the time commercially | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | "I'll do this if you do that" | 10:38 |
| r0kk3rz | ggabriel: we have no visibillity on jollas internal finances | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | it's perfectly acceptable | 10:38 |
| r0kk3rz | without visibillity there is no commitment | 10:38 |
| phlixi | r0kk3rz: thats exactly what i remember from the mer meeting, that jolla tries to refund if they can | 10:38 |
| ggabriel | you have no control on the condition, no | 10:39 |
| ggabriel | I guess what Jolla said is that investors are happy with refunding | 10:39 |
| coderus | pdanek: exact numbers seems to be available after march | 10:39 |
| ggabriel | but depending on how well they do | 10:39 |
| coderus | but it will be two offices in two cities :) | 10:39 |
| ggabriel | bear in mind that investors could well be unhappy and say no refund at all | 10:39 |
| ggabriel | so I take it as a good sign | 10:39 |
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| ggabriel | regardless of my refund making it or not :P | 10:39 |
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| mornfall | I think that the IGG campaign definitely downplayed the software work involved | 11:19 |
| mornfall | the software was presented as 'almost there' near the start of it | 11:19 |
| mornfall | not quite the 'we have ducttaped a sfos version which was held together by string to the demo device' that seems to be the case in hindsight | 11:21 |
| Stskeeps | string? pft, ducttape | 11:21 |
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| temmi_hoo | duckt tape in its true form _is_ the final and proper solution to a problem | 11:27 |
| temmi_hoo | duct? | 11:27 |
| Stskeeps | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape | 11:28 |
| temmi_hoo | anyway himmeli is the correct word we are speaking of | 11:28 |
| temmi_hoo | so, duct tape it is then for the tape | 11:28 |
| temmi_hoo | i still hold that a temporarily hacked together sw that barely works if you only do the moves on the demo script is not made with duct tape | 11:29 |
| mornfall | sounds like early 90s MS playbook :P | 11:30 |
| mornfall | I still wish I could get a freedreno-based GL stack on SFOS... | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | we have llvmpipe | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:36 |
| temmi_hoo | himmeli is made from straw and string | 11:36 |
| mornfall | yeah, that helps :P | 11:36 |
| mornfall | even ubuntu touch seems to be running primarily on libhybris | 11:37 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 11:37 |
| Stskeeps | there's really not much of alternative if you don't want to base on libhybris or take a major risk with freedreno | 11:38 |
| mornfall | it's pretty sad how a GL driver is a major obstacle for bluetooth low-energy support though | 11:39 |
| temmi_hoo | gl as in 3d graphics whizbang hulabaloo? | 11:40 |
| mornfall | yes temmi_hoo, that gl | 11:40 |
| mornfall | the stack that qualcomm provides only runs with very old linux | 11:42 |
| mornfall | well, for the soc that's in the jola phone, anyway | 11:42 |
| temmi_hoo | this sounds a lot like "eat our turds you louzy device vendors, we mighty silicon makers provide you with binary poo for software and now you must eat or else" | 11:42 |
| temmi_hoo | while i was typing that, you said the same thing in more polite form | 11:43 |
| mornfall | jolla* | 11:43 |
| mornfall | not even silicon, qualcomm is a fabless vendor :) | 11:44 |
| temmi_hoo | funny thing is, now everyone is hailing bcom for opening up as they have so kindly provided the binary poo for raspi foundation and made it possible for individual users to buy more binary poo | 11:44 |
| mornfall | more like a package of VHDL | 11:44 |
| mornfall | (*and* they get large chunks of their SoCs from elsewhere, like ARM...) | 11:45 |
| temmi_hoo | vhdl poo is okay but having open source software as binaryonly poo is not really an option even if you do get to read the sources that produced it | 11:45 |
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| temmi_hoo | the whole point of open sores is that anybody can patch and recompile and reinstall at will (possibly with worde results) | 11:46 |
| temmi_hoo | worse | 11:46 |
| Yaniel | but... muh backdoors | 11:47 |
| mornfall | yeah, well, qualcomm isn't a OSS company | 11:47 |
| mornfall | they give you linux because that's what virtualy all soc customers want | 11:47 |
| mornfall | (because they want to run android on the soc) | 11:47 |
| temmi_hoo | then they should not give you precompiled linux either | 11:47 |
| temmi_hoo | this is about to change, benefits of being open are pretty clear but the behemotian organizations take ages to change course | 11:50 |
| ggabriel | and in the meantime we keep buying their crap :P | 11:51 |
| temmi_hoo | soc vendors that do smaller embedded stuff are currently starting to toy around in being properly open for sw | 11:51 |
| locusf | http://developer.sonymobile.com/knowledge-base/open-source/open-devices/how-to-build-and-flash-a-linux-kernel/how-to-build-mainline-linux-for-xperia-devices/ <- it says qcom_defconfig there | 11:52 |
| temmi_hoo | oh that looks already better, the binary poo can be linked with your own stuff around it | 11:54 |
| temmi_hoo | so, when do you have sfos on your own tablet? :) | 11:54 |
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| temmi_hoo | and when does jolla release their proprietary stuff as similar binary poo to muck around without touching innards? | 11:55 |
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| mornfall | temmi_hoo: that qcom_defconfig doesn't mean there's anything from qcom on there | 11:55 |
| mornfall | temmi_hoo: linux has its own drivers for most devices on the qcom soc's (if not all) | 11:56 |
| temmi_hoo | ... wishful me | 11:56 |
| mornfall | but you get no support from qcom if you use stuff that didn't come in the devkit | 11:56 |
| mornfall | (freedreno is the OSS GL driver for qualcomm GPUs, but device vendors are apparently afraid to invest in using that instead of the qualcomm binary driver) | 11:57 |
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| mornfall | this is windows 98 all over again | 11:59 |
| temmi_hoo | well there are already methods of taking in vendor binary poo for modules and userland so i am not seeing a problem from sw side, now the vendors just need to release their binaries in a suitable form instead of a take-all-leave-all selection | 11:59 |
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| mornfall | (at least NT-based systems run most drivers out of the kernel, so they aren't all-powerful) | 12:00 |
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| locusf | temmi_hoo: its already doable via using hadk | 13:06 |
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| temmi_hoo | mornfall: we know better, microkernels win, all drivers are just userland processes and nobody needs their computer do actually anything useful while the filesystem is accessing a block device | 13:11 |
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| temmi_hoo | locusf: btw did the console port work? | 13:11 |
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| phlixi | some one keen to recommend a owncloud based notes app for sailfish? | 13:18 |
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| locusf | temmi_hoo: nope | 13:26 |
| locusf | temmi_hoo: I need a 1.8V uart -> usb cable | 13:26 |
| temmi_hoo | dang | 13:27 |
| temmi_hoo | partco, ye? | 13:27 |
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| locusf | not in partco | 13:28 |
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| locusf | gotta order directly from ftdi | 13:28 |
| locusf | which means 33.61£ please | 13:29 |
| locusf | ffs its just a cable :p | 13:29 |
| mal-_ | win 23 | 13:29 |
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| mornfall | temmi_hoo: you haven't used a microkernel system for a long time, have you :) | 13:33 |
| mornfall | locusf: no it's not just a cable, it's a chip :) | 13:33 |
| mornfall | the cable is thrown in as a free bonus :P | 13:33 |
| locusf | lol still | 13:34 |
| temmi_hoo | mornfall: :D well... i'm in the know, i just wanted to remind everyone of the usenet wars that basically started linux in the first place | 13:35 |
| mornfall | temmi_hoo: android is the only mainstream OS I can think of that's not microkernel(ish) | 13:35 |
| temmi_hoo | well everybody took microish approach to their kernel yet to my knowledge all of them are unpure if you start to academically analyze if they're true microkernel architectures | 13:36 |
| temmi_hoo | i'm liking the current situation though | 13:36 |
| pdanek | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp-tq-HNcBs | 13:37 |
| pdanek | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G5dNihE6X4 | 13:37 |
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