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| CoderCandy | uhm, how many speakers do the Jolla have? | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| CoderCandy | Because it looks like it should be two, but only the left one on my device works. | 00:10 |
| Eztran | It has one. | 00:12 |
| william_gen | 1 | 00:12 |
| william_gen | another is mic | 00:13 |
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| CoderCandy | ooh, gotcha | 00:19 |
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| Quu | for some reason, warehouse dont show updates anymore | 06:30 |
| Quu | but i can install them from terminal | 06:31 |
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| memoryleak_ | hi everyone | 08:22 |
| Waitee | hi | 08:23 |
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| memoryleak_ | does anybody know how to solve the icon shuffling bug or when it happens? | 08:23 |
| Waitee | the thing when the icons stack on each other? | 08:24 |
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| Nicd- | memoryleak_ had a memory leak and died | 08:24 |
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| memoryleak1 | hi again... | 08:26 |
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| memoryleak1 | memoryleak_: does anybody know how to solve the icon shuffling bug or when it happens? | 08:26 |
| Waitee | 11:24 < Waitee> the thing when the icons stack on each other? | 08:27 |
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| memoryleak1 | nope, when the icons are at completely diffetent places than before when i sorted them | 08:32 |
| Waitee | oh | 08:33 |
| Waitee | just sort them again? | 08:33 |
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| Nicd- | memoryleak1: do you have google play installed? | 08:35 |
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| memoryleak1 | no, i do not have google plsy | 08:41 |
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| memoryleak1 | i do not want to sort then often. if it happens often.. | 08:41 |
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| Waitee | never happened to me | 08:42 |
| Waitee | lol | 08:42 |
| memoryleak1 | oh | 08:46 |
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| memoryleak1 | i read it that other people had the same problem | 08:47 |
| stephg | memoryleak1: do you have many android apps ? | 08:47 |
| stephg | my sorting only goes wrong when android apps (in my case from Play) get updated | 08:47 |
| Morpog_PC___ | memoryleak1, happened once to me | 08:48 |
| Morpog_PC___ | but was a few updates back | 08:48 |
| memoryleak1 | i have 3 android apps | 08:51 |
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| Nicd- | some new ambiences: https://plus.google.com/photos/+MikkoAhlroth/albums/5951600878348798689 | 08:53 |
| Nicd- | (at the end) | 08:53 |
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| stephg | Nicd-: cool | 08:54 |
| stephg | have been meaning to get some of mine put up somewhere | 08:54 |
| stephg | how blue do the snow ones come out? | 08:54 |
| stephg | (e.g. the one you have of the path lined by trees in the snow) | 08:55 |
| Nicd- | really blue | 08:56 |
| Nicd- | for some reason the ambience color picker algorithm makes most of them blue | 08:57 |
| stephg | yeah I noticed that :/ | 08:57 |
| Quu | you can edit the colours | 08:57 |
| Quu | iirc it was sqlite -file-thingie somewhere | 08:57 |
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| TemeV | yeah, the colours are in a sqlite database | 09:02 |
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| TemeV | I played around them once | 09:02 |
| TemeV | I think that the ambiances created from photos don't have enough contrast | 09:03 |
| TemeV | between text and background I mean | 09:03 |
| Quu | true. | 09:04 |
| TemeV | I made a black and white ambiance. It was on most cases very readable (helped especially in direct sun light) but I had some issue | 09:05 |
| TemeV | can't remember what it was | 09:05 |
| TemeV | But a few sliders to select amount of contrast and to choose text colors etc would be nice | 09:06 |
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| laehtis | Nicd: awesome, especially I like the blue snow sunshine | 09:23 |
| Nicd- | all the winter ones were taken while walking our dog :P | 09:24 |
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| laehtis | nice! you live in countryside? | 09:42 |
| Nicd- | not really, Tampere | 09:45 |
| Nicd- | the first 7 pictures are from Vaajakoski where I used to live, the rest are from Hervanta or Annala in Tampere | 09:46 |
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| laehtis | okay! Great landscapes you have there. I live currently in Kuopio, and we do have countryside here with same kind of landscapes | 09:51 |
| laehtis | Finnish nature definitely keeps me fascinated | 09:51 |
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| ggabriel | o/ | 10:16 |
| ggabriel | this one needs some love: https://together.jolla.com/question/1915/bug-timer-not-updated-when-peeking/ | 10:16 |
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| ggabriel | it isn't about the timer only fwiw | 10:16 |
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| Venemo | here's a somewhat radical, but I think good idea | 10:49 |
| Venemo | https://together.jolla.com/question/40154/jolla-please-take-friends-under-your-wings/ | 10:49 |
| Venemo | what do you think? | 10:49 |
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| M4rtinK | Venemo: well, I'm more thinking about "jolla-fix-the-account-management-mess" | 10:51 |
| Stskeeps | weeell, thought is good, practice not so easy | 10:51 |
| M4rtinK | eq. so that an application doesn't need to be made by Jolla to use basic platform interfaces | 10:52 |
| Stskeeps | and don't ask me to elaborate, but it's nothing related to sfiet, nor friends | 10:52 |
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| M4rtinK | options integration is another example | 10:52 |
| Stskeeps | we should make the ui more pluggable for sure | 10:52 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, exactly | 10:52 |
| M4rtinK | also the even screen currently feels almost abandoned | 10:52 |
| tbr-fi | the nativ app SDK is still _alpha_ ffs, maybe put in efforts to give it a beta badge | 10:53 |
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| tbr-fi | native | 10:53 |
| Venemo | I understand the implications, but I do think that Jolla should hire Lucien to work on Friends | 10:53 |
| Tegu | as the application settings show the whole app list, it gaves a feeling that other apps could also use it and not only some of the jolla apps | 10:53 |
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| tbr-fi | Tegu: that seems to be/have been the intention | 10:54 |
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| mcfrisk | jolla gallery stops playing all my videos after 6-7 minutes, known kernel bugs? | 10:57 |
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| tbr-fi | why kernel? | 10:57 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, any well-known "improve-the-gallery" question I should vote for ? | 10:58 |
| M4rtinK | the current gallery paradigm is breaking down for me due to the huge amount of photos I have on the device | 10:59 |
| M4rtinK | and tracker including random images it finds on the device isn't helping :) | 10:59 |
| M4rtinK | ...especially if some of them have timestamps from the future and are always shown on the top :) | 11:00 |
| mcfrisk | dmesg shows repeating messages which look like driver/codec problems,and gallery also stops responding like it hanged on a syscall | 11:00 |
| william-gen | jolla should improve the UI beauty | 11:00 |
| Venemo | M4rtinK: https://together.jolla.com/question/1154/no-way-to-quickly-navigate-through-a-long-list/ | 11:02 |
| Nicd- | oh yes, YTPlayer can now show my subscriptions | 11:02 |
| Nicd- | goodbye android youtube app! | 11:03 |
| william-gen | now,UI is corase | 11:03 |
| Nicd- | another android app squashed :) | 11:03 |
| coderus | did you tried new Mitakuuluu? | 11:03 |
| william-gen | YTPlayer? | 11:04 |
| Nicd- | william-gen: native youtube app | 11:05 |
| Nicd- | coderus: it's out? :o oooh | 11:05 |
| william-gen | good news | 11:05 |
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| Nicd- | coderus: 0.2-10? | 11:07 |
| william-gen | how to insert one person's nickname on mobile irc client ? | 11:07 |
| M4rtinK | Venemo: yeah, it pretty much boils down to that | 11:07 |
| M4rtinK | Venemo: but I think some gallery specific improvements are still in order, like "show only photos from camera" | 11:08 |
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| william-gen | can galley see files in internal storage or SD card? | 11:09 |
| william-gen | gallery | 11:10 |
| Tegu | both mixed | 11:11 |
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| mcfrisk | f11_2d_data28_val = 0 on dmesg means video playback stops and gallery hangs | 11:20 |
| coderus | Nicd-: no, just pre-release currently https://twitter.com/iCODeRUS/status/457662717760135168 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=92160&goto=newpost | 11:22 |
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| sharefree | yolla | 11:29 |
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| Turski | is stere still no proper battery logger for jolla? | 11:36 |
| Turski | there* | 11:36 |
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| sharefree | When is jolla coming to Asia ? | 12:44 |
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| Venemo | M4rtinK: yeah | 13:41 |
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| coderus | Mitakuuluu v0.5-2 final pre-release: https://github.com/CODeRUS/mitakuuluu2/releases/tag/0.5-2 | 14:20 |
| mikma | let's see now.. | 14:29 |
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| sharefree | how are you | 14:42 |
| sharefree | I just saw in the reviews that Jolla crashes a lot of android apps too well | 14:43 |
| tbr | huh? | 14:44 |
| * tbr doesn't have any significant problems with the android apps that /he/ uses | 14:45 | |
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| Eztran | doesn't help that said Android apps also occasionally crash on Android devices... | 14:48 |
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| sharefree | Eztran, but i m not worried as I do not use Android apps from Stores .. I use F-droid which do not seem to have any issues | 14:52 |
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| Eztran | F-droid should be fine, yeah. | 14:55 |
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| * tbr just sent the invitation for the next community meeting to the dev ml | 16:03 | |
| tbr | https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-April/004007.html | 16:03 |
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| Kiranos | tbr: what is that about, not https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-April/003925.html ? | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: thank you | 16:09 |
| Kiranos | ah next meeting | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: your together.* item re chum, happen to have the link? | 16:10 |
| Stskeeps | (i have it deep in my sorting folders) | 16:10 |
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| matoking | coderus: Thanks for releasing the source code of Mitakuuluu under WTFPL :) | 16:26 |
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| coderus | matoking: :) | 16:28 |
| Stskeeps | coderus: good work | 16:28 |
| sharefree | hi | 16:35 |
| coderus | Stskeeps: thanks :) | 16:37 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: https://together.jolla.com/question/13605/visible-open-source-app-community-supported-by-jolla/ | 16:38 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: thanks | 16:38 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I intend to elaborate a bit in reply to my own mail, just wanted to get that out and clearly separate from meeting announcement | 16:38 |
| Stskeeps | are we aiming for a discussion, or an answer? | 16:39 |
| Stskeeps | just to understand expectations a bit | 16:39 |
| Stskeeps | or an answer with an discussion surroundings issues/problems/etc | 16:39 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I personally am aiming at clarifying the situation. turning up the pain flame on jolla for ignoring it. Then hopefully a commitment oficially by jolla. | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | makes sense | 16:40 |
| tbr | If I walk away from this meeting with some mushy bullshit *again*, then I'm going to shut the door behind me forever on Sailfish | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 16:41 |
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| tbr | could probably get a more sensible statement out of tizen in less time | 16:41 |
| fk_lx | tbr: strong statement | 16:41 |
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| tbr | fk_lx: you have no idea what's cooking inside me | 16:42 |
| fk_lx | tbr: I imagine | 16:42 |
| fk_lx | tbr: seen on FOSDEM | 16:42 |
| fk_lx | tbr: and I feel it's good you have strong opinions | 16:42 |
| fk_lx | tbr: regarding open source app community story | 16:43 |
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| Stskeeps | tbr: i'll make sure we treat every subject of next meeting with due respect, attention, etc | 16:43 |
| sharefree | So what is up | 16:43 |
| Stskeeps | sharefree: the sky | 16:43 |
| tbr | This really really boggles my mind. There are people who care and want to do something in their freetime, they offer it in a sketched out way to Jolla and in return you get: silence, nothing, nada, zip | 16:43 |
| tbr | this is FREE WORKFORCE | 16:43 |
| sharefree | When is jolla releasing OS for Nexus and Samsung ? | 16:43 |
| tbr | that would enrich the "ecosystem" | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | sharefree: nexus 4 is already out | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: while i'm pondering, there hasn't been any propositions of a non-free chum right? | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | ie like maemo.org had non-free manual deb upload | 16:44 |
| sharefree | Stskeeps, but not in working state | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | sharefree: it works pretty well | 16:44 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: elephant in the room. I won't name it. | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: nod | 16:44 |
| sharefree | Stskeeps, really ? but videos say bluetooth/ call audio / video playback is not working | 16:45 |
| tbr | sharefree: there is a difference between release of an early adopter image and "fully working" | 16:45 |
| tbr | sharefree: what are you looking for? | 16:46 |
| sharefree | tbr, I am looking for Sailfish OS on a phone that I can buy in China | 16:46 |
| tbr | sharefree: that didn't answer my question. | 16:47 |
| sharefree | tbr, but that i am looking for | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | ok, i have a few hours to kill tonight, time to work on the meeting prep.. | 16:47 |
| tbr | sharefree: "early adopter image" or "fully working" | 16:47 |
| sharefree | tbr, well sir fully working | 16:47 |
| tbr | sharefree: no such thing | 16:48 |
| sharefree | tbr, do you have any idea whether Geeksphone Revolution would support it ? | 16:48 |
| * Stskeeps looks over at his | 16:48 | |
| Stskeeps | potentially | 16:48 |
| sharefree | I am looking for Jolla Phone online but they do not ship here so I am going with Geeksphone Revolution if it supports Sailfish OS | 16:48 |
| sharefree | I do not want Android or Firefox OS .. I want full gnu/linux | 16:49 |
| TemeV | sharefree, have you checked ebay? | 16:49 |
| tbr | sharefree: you are looking for _fully_ working, there is no such thing, except for the Jolla phone itself. Which is currently not for sale in China. | 16:51 |
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| TemeV | sharefree, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jolla-White-16GB-EU-Sailfish-OS-Mobile-Phone-/121322972644?pt=DE_Handy_s&hash=item1c3f69a5e4 | 16:51 |
| sharefree | TemeV, yep first did I did but the issue is they want 3 times the price of Jolla Phone | 16:51 |
| merlin1991 | tbr: tbh not even the jolla if _fully_ working, I had some fun with out of the blue reboots yesterday | 16:52 |
| sharefree | that used | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | (fwiw other devices have reboots too.. or shutdowns..) | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | but doesn't excuse that such a problem exists | 16:53 |
| fk_lx | btw. speaking of problems - after latest update non of Android apps starts on my Jolla | 16:53 |
| walokra | fk_lx: I had same problem with some apps but reinstalling android support fixed it | 16:54 |
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| sharefree | tbr, I am just asking if Geeksphone Revolution being similar phone can support it in near future | 16:54 |
| merlin1991 | Stskeeps: then again n900 and N9 did work stable (after some really bad experience in the beginning) | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | merlin1991: nod | 16:54 |
| fk_lx | walokra: I have that problem with all apps, that includes also Yandex | 16:54 |
| walokra | and reboot has worked for problems like no sound when playing media | 16:54 |
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| walokra | jolla beats my corporate given lumia 800 and have learned to be without corporate emails on phone as jolla's exchange support can't handle the security requirements :) | 16:56 |
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| fk_lx | walokra: ok, I'm reinstalling Android Support, let's see if it helps | 17:00 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: did you do stuff like installing google play? | 17:03 |
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| * fk_lx is admitting that, hopes he avoids one of Aard's whips | 17:04 | |
| fk_lx | :) | 17:04 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: in that case removing android support, manually making sure the directory is empty, and installing it again should help | 17:04 |
| aard_ | google play support messes around quite a bit in internal bits of our runtime, so having that break on updates is not too unexpected | 17:05 |
| walokra | i don't have google play but apps extracted from play store like instagram | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: you around by chance? | 17:06 |
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| lbt | possibly :) | 17:06 |
| walokra | aard_: is the google play support "working" | 17:06 |
| fk_lx | aard_: roger that! | 17:06 |
| fk_lx | aard_: thanks for help :) | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: tbr: do you have capacity/time at this easter evening to randomly discuss chum? | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | i just want to listen at this particular time and ask a few questins | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | o | 17:07 |
| lbt | nowish you mean? | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 17:07 |
| lbt | in a few minutes? | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 17:07 |
| lbt | need to wrap up some stuff | 17:07 |
| aard_ | walokra: well, you can hack it in, but it's nothing we can support officially (and probably never will), so from our side "supporting it" is just "don't break it intentionally" | 17:07 |
| walokra | k, thought so. just as some apps are not on yandex or amazon, it would be easier to use play directly | 17:08 |
| walokra | and aptoide is confusing | 17:08 |
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| aard_ | yep. I've been thinking about adding that on my device a few times as well. but always decided otherwise, as I'm testing new versions of the runtime all the time, and it'd be a mess to clean it up every time I update | 17:09 |
| * fk_lx hopes that in future Sailfish will have such a great native apps, that no android support will be needed | 17:09 | |
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| aard_ | fk_lx: I think it'll be _always_ useful to have android support (unless android dies), just because you'll _always_ have some companies only doing apps for selected platforms. so I expect that the number of apps you need to run inside the android runtime will get significantly lower, but that there'll always be a handful nice to have apps that are just not available for sailfish (and other obscure platforms, like windows phone) | 17:12 |
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| fk_lx | aard_: a bit other topic - if Ubuntu Touch would become popular it might benefit also Sailfish app ecosystem | 17:14 |
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| aard_ | yep | 17:14 |
| fk_lx | aard_: in the sense that there will be common backend and only different frontends | 17:14 |
| fk_lx | aard_: or for lazy ones one non-Sillica UI | 17:15 |
| walokra | the situation for native apps would be better just if companies would provide open api and not limited ones like twitter, instagram etc. | 17:16 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: prod me when ready (sorry, kid woke up..) | 17:17 |
| lbt | yep - just comitting :) | 17:17 |
| Nicd- | does anyone else have android apps shut down when you minimize them? | 17:18 |
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| Nicd- | happens a lot for me and kind of kills the multitasking :P | 17:19 |
| aard_ | Nicd-: did you check if it's orientation related close swipe? | 17:19 |
| aard_ | that was the most common case when we investigated the issue :p | 17:20 |
| Nicd- | aard_: it's not, also they sometimes die when I go into another app | 17:20 |
| Tegu | need moar ram | 17:20 |
| rubdos | Tegu, swapspace? ^^ | 17:21 |
| Nicd- | reddit client did this for a long time, then stopped for a while and then started again | 17:21 |
| aard_ | Nicd-: can you ssh in, run journalctl as root, and see if there's something interesting from the android runtime? | 17:21 |
| Nicd- | aard_: next time sure | 17:21 |
| Nicd- | journalctl -fa? | 17:21 |
| aard_ | yes | 17:22 |
| Tegu | rubdos: ah, yea maybe | 17:22 |
| rubdos | lol | 17:22 |
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| Nicd- | aard_: nothing | 17:26 |
| walokra | Nicd-: i noticed the same earlier (minimize swipe -> close) but it doesn't do it anymore | 17:27 |
| aard_ | Nicd-: is there something on app startup? | 17:27 |
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| Nicd- | aard_: on the first time something about stat_hub and that the app 'is not supported' | 17:28 |
| Nicd- | 8w 34 | 17:28 |
| Nicd- | bah | 17:28 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: 'k all done | 17:29 |
| mikma | so anyone has any idea why my jolla is silent again? no, it has volume full and is not set to silent mode, it just doesn't ring | 17:29 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: okay.. so, chum - i get it, open source maemo extras style on top of a sailfishos target; what would you really want jolla to do? allow it to be in added in store after acceptance of 3rd party repos (like maemo had it) or similarly in developer mode? [note that all my questions are simply to understand the situation better] | 17:30 |
| mikma | ok, the slider from settings was set to 0 for some weird reason. the volume set with buttons was full | 17:30 |
| Nicd- | aard_: I will attempt to repro and give you the full logs later | 17:31 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: how does "yes" sound? | 17:32 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: like i have more questions.. | 17:32 |
| lbt | you are not alone | 17:32 |
| lbt | I think the goal is to have a community controlled repo | 17:32 |
| Yaniel | what about the trusted user system arch has? | 17:33 |
| Stskeeps | okay, so, next up.. what's the plan for users to interact with this repo? | 17:33 |
| Stskeeps | standard pkcon install? | 17:33 |
| lbt | with both the words "community" and "controlled" meaning something | 17:33 |
| Stskeeps | or a client on device | 17:33 |
| lbt | I have no actual plan | 17:33 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: okay, how about vision? | 17:34 |
| Stskeeps | assuming the earlier is possible | 17:34 |
| Stskeeps | (which i think it is) | 17:34 |
| lbt | how does the community want to work with Jolla and vice-versa | 17:34 |
| Yaniel | well as an arch user I really like the concept of the AUR | 17:34 |
| lbt | I think tighter integration is good | 17:34 |
| Yaniel | ie. basically anyone can set up an user repo | 17:35 |
| lbt | Yaniel: ? | 17:35 |
| lbt | PPA in ubuntu? | 17:35 |
| * merlin1991 would prefer a client, but more importantly a way so that the repo url changes with ssu releases | 17:35 | |
| Yaniel | similar yes | 17:35 |
| lbt | yes - I love that idea too | 17:35 |
| Yaniel | and packages can be voted to be included in core repos | 17:35 |
| walokra | i like the openrepos + warehouse but building and sources through obs is great (although problems with keeping api keys secret) | 17:35 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: so I think aiming to integrate makes sense | 17:35 |
| merlin1991 | I suddenly had a few apps less on my device afte the sailfish upgrade because the dependencies in chum were built against old sailfish and hence got removed | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | that's probably solveable with a bit of magic | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: okay, can you tell me a bit more about what that could mean in practice? | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | consider me a bit daft :) | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | i just want to be able to fully explain this, not shoot it down or something like that | 17:37 |
| lbt | np - I get it | 17:37 |
| lbt | I've not thought about chum for a while so getting my ideas in place | 17:37 |
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| Stskeeps | :nod: | 17:37 |
| Yaniel | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR for reference | 17:38 |
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| merlin1991 | my personal idea would be a store like client backed by an obs repo that gets adjusted with upgrades, so essentially like maemo where "Extras" made it all the way into the official package manager | 17:38 |
| lbt | I think there are multiple levels - Yaniel's AUR and the PPAs and 'home projects' on OBS are different to Chum | 17:38 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: good distinction | 17:39 |
| lbt | merlin1991: yes - essentially it would be good for Jolla to QA with Chum enabled | 17:39 |
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| lbt | and if needed release with it disabled | 17:39 |
| aard_ | lbt: everything but core repositories is now disabled during updates. that'd include chum as well | 17:40 |
| merlin1991 | and on the qa side there should be at least a -testing stage where packages get promoted based on a voting system | 17:40 |
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| lbt | (community hat on) we need to respect their need to ensure a good experience | 17:40 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i wouldn't worry about chum side of things on upgrades | 17:40 |
| Stskeeps | except that, of course, repo urls should still match | 17:40 |
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| lbt | dependency issues are the primary concern as always | 17:41 |
| merlin1991 | does pkgcon have a concept of priorities? | 17:42 |
| lbt | aard_: how about a 2-phase update? | 17:42 |
| lbt | system and then "other repos" | 17:42 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: updates would be handled by whatever store client does it | 17:42 |
| Stskeeps | i think that's sane | 17:42 |
| Stskeeps | ie, openrepos handles their updates, jolla store handles their updates, .. | 17:42 |
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| Stskeeps | anyway, we're drifting into technical detail :_ | 17:43 |
| Stskeeps | :) | 17:43 |
| Stskeeps | let me just look at what chum consists of, today | 17:43 |
| lbt | consider extras too | 17:43 |
| aard_ | chum either needs a 'latest' target, or (probably better) have build targets following sailfish versions. it probably should be ok for jolla to provide an import for mer obs to build against close to release, so that the repo is ready by release (not right now, but we'll be getting to that point in a few months) | 17:43 |
| lbt | Chum today is a placeholder prototype IMHO | 17:44 |
| lbt | aard_: I think we have latest now | 17:44 |
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| lbt | or maybe that was just sfos build target | 17:44 |
| merlin1991 | https://build.merproject.org/project/packages?project=sailfishos%3Achum%3A1.0.4.20 | 17:45 |
| aard_ | using latest makes it impossible to support older versions | 17:45 |
| lbt | aard_: https://build.merproject.org/project/subprojects?project=sailfishos%3Achum | 17:45 |
| merlin1991 | 1.0.4.20 has some packages inside since tbr didn't yet move them to 1.0.5.16 | 17:45 |
| lbt | yeah - I added a 'latest' for developers and decided not to add to chum - named versions only | 17:45 |
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| lbt | merlin1991: aside, copy, not move | 17:45 |
| merlin1991 | sorry I meant copy | 17:46 |
| lbt | :) | 17:46 |
| aard_ | I'd probably organize that different -- one project, with different build targets, and packages disabled on targets where they're not needed | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: do you consider chum seperate from having to enable developer mode? | 17:46 |
| Stskeeps | if there was a graphical interface | 17:46 |
| lbt | it would be nice yes | 17:46 |
| merlin1991 | I would (again based on the maemo extras model) | 17:46 |
| lbt | ideally more of a normal-user-level area | 17:47 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: a user _must_ do the 'allow 3rd party repos' change first. there's no point to make developer mode mandatory, though | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | yes, that's probably fine | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: is 3rd party app installation a seperate thing from dev mode these days? | 17:47 |
| aard_ | yes | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | good | 17:47 |
| aard_ | it always was :p | 17:47 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: yes, I am available for such discussion | 17:47 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: welcome to it ;) | 17:47 |
| lbt | hey tbr | 17:48 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: please keep in mind that presenting the community with a "take it or GTFO" 'solution' might be counter productive at this point | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: yes, i'm mainly listening currently | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | and i personally feel like that this is a thing where community is the ones providing solutions instead | 17:49 |
| tbr | what I mean is that Jolla has been strengthening by proxy openrepos and it is something to be taken account at this point, no way around it | 17:49 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 17:49 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: yes, but I'd hope that Jolla has some idea what they would like or wouldn't like to see | 17:49 |
| lbt | I think Chum would be something the device could enable for you ootb | 17:50 |
| M4rtinK | I'll just add that IIRC OpenRepos is open to integration with OBS | 17:50 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: else we're back at the mushy fluffy nonsense bullshit that the jolla social media accounts tend to spew out if you bring up harder topics | 17:50 |
| Stskeeps | gaah | 17:50 |
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| Stskeeps | sec, kid waking up again | 17:50 |
| Stskeeps | i think he's teething | 17:50 |
| tbr | fun times | 17:50 |
| lbt | so the untrusted sw dialogue would have Chum as an option - based on there being a reasonable community QA process in place | 17:50 |
| aard_ | lbt: installable through jolla store should be fine, preinstalled on device not so sure | 17:51 |
| fk_lx | M4rtinK: the question is if Open Repos wants community QA | 17:51 |
| M4rtinK | fk_lx: I think the idea was as an addition to the current model | 17:51 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: and nobody is going to argue with that, they can integrate the hell out of OBS, as long as they don't cause abusive load spikes on the builders | 17:51 |
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| M4rtinK | fk_lx: basically some packages would have a "built from open source code on OBS" & link to the source & OBS repo | 17:52 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: no-one's discussed that with me fwiw | 17:52 |
| lbt | but that's OT atm | 17:52 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: there are certain issues why I personally see openrepos as completely unsuitable as a "community repository for open source software" that would be endorsed by jolla | 17:52 |
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| M4rtinK | sure, I just remember the idea floating around | 17:52 |
| tbr | yes, basil mentioned it to me too | 17:52 |
| tbr | it's not hard to pull RPMs from a defined repository into something else, e.g. openrepos | 17:53 |
| lbt | my opinion on this is that OR is something Jolla should be keeping away from end-users and Chum is something it should be pushing them towards | 17:53 |
| * tbr agrees with that | 17:54 | |
| tbr | people are free to do in open mode whatever they want, but there's no need to endorse OR | 17:54 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: aard_ ^^ without that I don't see much motivation to do a Chum thing | 17:54 |
| fk_lx | tbr: btw. the word open is overused nowadays for different meanings | 17:55 |
| aard_ | lbt: chum is something I'd be ok with in store, OR not :up | 17:55 |
| clau3 | hmm, is there a reason why lipstick process connects to internet? | 17:55 |
| tbr | Stskeeps / aard_ - and to add to that, the lack of this has me in a holding pattern over chum, as I will not waste my private time on something that a company then suddenly decides to have a different opinion on and didn't bother to communicate | 17:55 |
| lbt | aard_: that's probably enough | 17:55 |
| tbr | fk_lx: open has been inflationary for years | 17:55 |
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| sharefree | hi | 17:56 |
| aard_ | lbt: but before adding it there I'd need to see QA policy from community for chum | 17:56 |
| fk_lx | aard_: so you are the store guy in Jolla? | 17:56 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: no, I'm the release guy | 17:56 |
| clau3 | my phone just ate hundreds of MBs today | 17:56 |
| lbt | aard_: agreed | 17:56 |
| fk_lx | aard_: so who is the store guy? | 17:56 |
| merlin1991 | no problem there to get a qa policy up, but I think nobody atm bothers untill they know that it will lead to something | 17:57 |
| lbt | I've listed a QA policy as a precondition for progressing chum | 17:57 |
| lbt | merlin1991: +1 | 17:57 |
| clau3 | of my limited 3g connection, and I'm trying to figure out why. | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | back, terribly sorry about that -- wife is at church and i'm only one taking care of a small baby | 17:57 |
| * Stskeeps reads backlog | 17:58 | |
| tbr | merlin1991: +1 | 17:58 |
| aard_ | we're currently probably about 2 months away from having the infrastructure on device ready to think about endorsing something like chum | 17:58 |
| fk_lx | 2 months a bit of time | 17:59 |
| tbr | it would be a perspective | 17:59 |
| tbr | if it gets confirmed by jolla | 17:59 |
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| walokra | that's one information which is nice to know as there's little information about roadmaps regarding jolla & sailfishos | 18:00 |
| lbt | tbr: so .. there's this 'untrusted SW' page now. How about if that had a tick box for (or just intalled) a Chum client in the same way that dev mode installs ssh? | 18:01 |
| clau3 | anyone knows how to get tcpdump on the phone? | 18:01 |
| M4rtinK | lbt: +1 | 18:01 |
| tbr | lbt: which one of your 1001 hats are you wearing, you keep confusing me | 18:01 |
| lbt | tbr: would that be a "sign of good faith" from Jolla ? | 18:01 |
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| fk_lx | tbr: I think that's the whole problem, Jolla stating clearly if she wants or not to go seriously with Chum | 18:02 |
| lbt | (community hat on) | 18:02 |
| M4rtinK | IMHO every block put between chum & users will drastically decrease their number | 18:02 |
| M4rtinK | and thus also the number of community testers & developer interest | 18:02 |
| fk_lx | lbt: I think tbr wants to hear such stuff from someone with Jolla hat on | 18:02 |
| tbr | fk_lx: that's what's supposedly happening on tuesday | 18:03 |
| tbr | I just wanted to qualify who is asking me this | 18:03 |
| merlin1991 | I find the idea of the tickbox in the untrusted page reasonable | 18:03 |
| lbt | fk_lx: yes - but we have to ask them - they can't read minds | 18:03 |
| aard_ | lbt: _if_ there's such a link it'd probably just be "open store client, entry 'chum'" | 18:03 |
| lbt | tbr: np - it's hard to wear both hats | 18:03 |
| tbr | lbt: I _know_, that's why I ask | 18:03 |
| lbt | aard_: so as if the user tapped on that app in the store; they'd be prompted to install it ? | 18:04 |
| tbr | lbt: the fact that I had to write the invitation doesn't make my job of bringing the controversial chum topic up as a follow up much easier either | 18:04 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: i don't see a problem in you doing that, if you had planned such a mail | 18:04 |
| tbr | I'm not sure if "app in the store" would be the right thing | 18:04 |
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| lbt | tbr: it's hols - I was busy enjoying myself (note that was not doing chum!) | 18:05 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: well, to be honest, it's me doing jolla's community engagement work. which jolla should be ashamed of. full stop. | 18:05 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: okay, message received loud and clear | 18:05 |
| aard_ | lbt: most likely store client opens, shows the 'chum' page with description, you read it, and then decide if you install it, or not | 18:05 |
| fk_lx | maybe a checkbox during installation process also kind of "I want to use community extras repo" | 18:05 |
| lbt | tbr: the problem I see (knowing a bit) is that the app lives outside the SFOS repos and only exists in harbour | 18:05 |
| aard_ | tbr: how else would you like to get it on the device? | 18:05 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: thank you for sending it, you're right | 18:06 |
| lbt | aard_: yes - that's what I understood - OK | 18:06 |
| tbr | aard_: I'm not sure we haven't said if chum comes with an app | 18:06 |
| Stskeeps | well, it's like 'enable developer mode' kind of app | 18:06 |
| lbt | tbr: do we want to use store app to install chum apps? | 18:06 |
| tbr | which wasn't in the nokia store either | 18:06 |
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| tbr | it was in settings | 18:06 |
| lbt | what about libraries? | 18:06 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: no, it can't be, as developer mode lives in our repos, while chum does not. it's technically different | 18:06 |
| tbr | so I see settings developer mode as sensible | 18:06 |
| tbr | but that's not necessarily the _right_ thing | 18:07 |
| tbr | it depends on the target audience | 18:07 |
| aard_ | tbr: the way nokia uses store and jolla uses store are two completely different things | 18:07 |
| Stskeeps | did harmattan have extras, ooi? | 18:07 |
| Stskeeps | on device | 18:07 |
| aard_ | we even put our own stuff into store | 18:07 |
| lbt | tbr: I can accept that Jolla, like Nokia would want a warning | 18:07 |
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| * Stskeeps goes research how that was done | 18:07 | |
| tbr | aard_: I was talking about the user visible path | 18:07 |
| M4rtinK | chum could be a good way to fix a bit the current bundling madness | 18:07 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: yes | 18:07 |
| M4rtinK | as store apps basically have to bundle everything currently | 18:07 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: but it's a bit scary | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | in n900 times, extras was there (after PR1.3 something); and you could enable the repo from repository management | 18:08 |
| lbt | and I think aard_ would break any chum upgrades | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | and it'd tell you hell and fire may rain down, you OK'ed, and you'd get apps through application manager | 18:08 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: integrated? | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, there was no real 'store' kind of thing | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | at least not in a sane form back then | 18:09 |
| lbt | true | 18:09 |
| fk_lx | it was indistinguishable | 18:09 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC there was Ovi and no one was using it | 18:09 |
| fk_lx | M4rtinK: true | 18:09 |
| tbr | yes, that's what I'm thinking. Does Chum need a UI, frontend? | 18:09 |
| lbt | I think so | 18:09 |
| tbr | the answer is most likely yes | 18:09 |
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| aard_ | given how jolla uses the store having it preinstalled would violate our philosophy here. having shortcuts from settings to find it in store should be ok, though | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | next question is if there's anything that can query packages from repo X from packagekit | 18:09 |
| lbt | we can't trust store to do the right thing | 18:09 |
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| Stskeeps | just to see how easy that'd be | 18:10 |
| lbt | aard_: seems like it wouldn't be too hard to hit 'install' for the user too - assuming there was a tick box | 18:11 |
| lbt | aard_: at this point there's a big disincentive to work on chum due to OR momentum | 18:11 |
| tbr | but what happens if the user wants to install chum, but hasn't enabled developer mode? | 18:11 |
| lbt | and IMHO that needs some assistance to overcome | 18:11 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: that should be fine, they're seperate | 18:11 |
| lbt | +1 | 18:12 |
| Stskeeps | but, unless you have a ui, it's a bit odd to interact with ;) | 18:12 |
| aard_ | tbr: you need to allow 3rd party repos, nothing else | 18:12 |
| clau | what happened to mer-tools repo after the last update? :( | 18:12 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I see that as a problem. "But I installed it, no worky!!!!111!" | 18:12 |
| clau | I don't have it at all in my repos (ssu lr) | 18:12 |
| lbt | clau: #sailfishos ? | 18:12 |
| Stskeeps | i don't personally see any other way around it than to have some sort of ui app to browse it | 18:12 |
| Stskeeps | as terminal comes with developer mode | 18:12 |
| clau | well, I'm kind of freaking out... the phone is doing constantly traffic which I can't account for. | 18:13 |
| merlin1991 | regarding harmattan and extras, harmattan had a package in the nokia repos that contained an aegis domain for appsformeego to enable the apps4meego client to install stuff and whatnot | 18:13 |
| M4rtinK | one can never have enough graphical repo frontends :) | 18:13 |
| clau | and I'd like to get tcpdump on it, but I don't remember from where. any pointers? | 18:13 |
| Stskeeps | clau: ssu ar mer-tools but under your own risk | 18:13 |
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| clau | considering how things are working now, I'll probably end up doing a reset anyway :) | 18:14 |
| aard_ | lbt: I don't see how openrepos can be cleaned up to get somewhere close to a reasonably stable state that's likely to stay stable, so it's completely irrelevant to my release work | 18:14 |
| clau | but thanks | 18:14 |
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| Stskeeps | in update5, how is openrepos installed atm anyway? | 18:14 |
| Stskeeps | enable 3rd party repos, find rpm off interweb, install? | 18:14 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: still as usual, you need to manually install the rpm | 18:14 |
| lbt | aard_: yeah - but what I'm not sure about is that when Untrusted SW is enabled - what's to prevent OR app in store? | 18:15 |
| lbt | and this is where I want to see Jolla 'endorse' a more controlled approach | 18:16 |
| Stskeeps | and with the idea of chum, it'd be store->find chum->install->.. enable 3rd party repos or be queried about it? | 18:16 |
| aard_ | lbt: the or-app as it works now just adds repos via 'ssu ar'. this behaviour won't be allowed in store. if you want to have additional repos you'll have to define feature descriptions for ssu | 18:16 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: that would be one approach - the other would be 'enable from settings' and device says "would you like chum client now" | 18:17 |
| clau | Stskeeps, is there a legitimate reason why lipstick is connecting to an IP in US? It looks like it's owned by amazon. | 18:17 |
| lbt | aard_: so chum repos go into ssu? | 18:17 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: would be good if enabler (checkbox to enabled 3rd party software) would be during install of Chum client from store | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | clau: something will be querying if the internet connection is up or not | 18:17 |
| clau | k, makes sense | 18:17 |
| aard_ | lbt: so far I'm expecting to see _one_ chum repo | 18:17 |
| lbt | aard_: yes | 18:17 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: so, there's no way around a lot of legalese to allow 3rd party installs, rest is easier | 18:18 |
| aard_ | and the chum package from store would bring a ssu feature description, which enables the repo | 18:18 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: that's fine and accepted | 18:18 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: makes sense | 18:18 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: it's making the chum client 'easy' to install vs 'now you have to jump through some more hoops' | 18:18 |
| lbt | I want to tweet the full install instructions in < 140 chars :D | 18:18 |
| M4rtinK | more hoops == less users/devs | 18:19 |
| M4rtinK | always | 18:19 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: ye | 18:19 |
| fk_lx | lbt: tweeter for instructions, ambitious :) | 18:19 |
| lbt | Stskeeps aard_ and I'm pushing at this because I think we need to boost the community app side of Jolla | 18:20 |
| M4rtinK | and considering all chum developers submitting stuff to chum will be doing it for free in their free time... | 18:20 |
| tbr | it needs to be made clear in the process (not instructions) what people get into, but the instructions should be simple | 18:20 |
| fk_lx | lbt: how about Sailfish manual on Twitter "Go poke lbt on #sailfishos" ;) | 18:20 |
| tbr | if it's harder than OR → game over for jolla | 18:20 |
| lbt | hehe | 18:20 |
| aard_ | tbr: what people get into should be in the package description displayed by the store client | 18:20 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: i think mission is understood, just getting a better understanding of the whole picture | 18:20 |
| ggabriel | fk_lx: they won't find the hashtag :P | 18:20 |
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| M4rtinK | people will jump through burning hoops if they have to to a commercial app store, but might be a bit hesitant otherwise | 18:20 |
| lbt | tbr: yes - let me see what the concrete proposal was .. few lines back now | 18:21 |
| fk_lx | ggabriel: :) | 18:21 |
| tbr | aard_: exactly | 18:21 |
| Stskeeps | now.. for the marketing pitch - and sorry, i have to ask this: what's the benefit of chum? for users, for jolla, for developers | 18:22 |
| Stskeeps | just to understand what you think about it | 18:22 |
| Stskeeps | ignoring openrepos totally for a moment | 18:22 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I believe I've outlined this in the past, but here goes: | 18:22 |
| tbr | - only open source apps | 18:22 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: easy, I'll get more beers on meetings when I put the enablers for that into releases :p | 18:22 |
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| tbr | - easy to install, can have dependencies | 18:22 |
| lbt | OK | 18:22 |
| tbr | - community driven | 18:23 |
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| tbr | - quality apps that use unstable or unkosher APIs and then can progress into store once APIs available | 18:23 |
| lbt | tbr: Stskeeps: aard_: the install proposal for chum. 2 variants | 18:23 |
| lbt | 1) Settings -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow, tick Install Chum client. Done | 18:23 |
| lbt | 2) Store -> Chum client and select install -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow. Done | 18:23 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: :nod: | 18:24 |
| tbr | and a couple of other things I keep forgetting | 18:24 |
| fk_lx | lbt: 2) is better :) | 18:24 |
| merlin1991 | Stskeeps: the benefit is to be able to drop libraries and stuff in chum | 18:24 |
| M4rtinK | 3) both ? :) | 18:24 |
| tbr | like transparent build process, auditable from source | 18:24 |
| M4rtinK | you need to have a client anyway | 18:24 |
| fk_lx | M4rtinK: +1 | 18:24 |
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| tbr | what runs on your device is what's in git | 18:24 |
| tbr | no binary upload bullshit bingo | 18:24 |
| lbt | fk_lx: yes - I think we need both | 18:24 |
| merlin1991 | things like various python librariies that make hacking so much easier when readily available | 18:24 |
| aard_ | M4rtinK: if 1), then it'd be both, as that'd be just a shortcut to store client | 18:25 |
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| M4rtinK | + providing the chum client RPM, so that people can easily install it themselves from CLI without fiddling with GUI nonsense :) | 18:25 |
| merlin1991 | for me that's the biggest point, the possibility to make a library available to everone without having to justify it in mer / nemo mw | 18:26 |
| tbr | if executed properly this will flourish and bring more apps and also reference source code to jolla | 18:26 |
| Stskeeps | and i'll be sure to get this question: what is it going to cost to assist? what effort needs to be put into it? | 18:26 |
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| M4rtinK | merlin1991: exactly, might come there eventually though but can be used much sooner | 18:26 |
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| lbt | yes - I am really worried about handling chum over SFOS upgrades though << aard_ | 18:26 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: i'm not worried about that after update5 | 18:26 |
| tbr | otherwise you have a shiny new location or whatever API and no code how to use it | 18:26 |
| Stskeeps | the disabling repos at upgrade -> no problem | 18:27 |
| M4rtinK | merlin1991: and others can build on it ! | 18:27 |
| tbr | and people don't fare well on documentation only | 18:27 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: no, not for SFOS, for chum! | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i know | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | ah.. | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | okay, now i think i get what you mean | 18:27 |
| lbt | I'm not worried about SFOS - I think it'll be fine | 18:27 |
| lbt | yeah | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | ugh | 18:27 |
| aard_ | lbt: I don't see a big problem there | 18:27 |
| lbt | yeah | 18:27 |
| lbt | aard_: think about it | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: let me try to phrase it into something where you'll go ugh too.. | 18:28 |
| tbr | also with jolla: alpha is the new beta, so what's the problem? (a jab at the _alpha_ grade SDK) | 18:28 |
| lbt | we also may need to pre-build Chum somehow | 18:28 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: let's say the packages installed from chum at update5 is built against update5 but somehow ABI incompatible with what update6 brings, naturally, chum installed apps and libs need to upgrade accordingily.. | 18:28 |
| Stskeeps | to the new update6 chum | 18:29 |
| lbt | but chum is disabled | 18:29 |
| merlin1991 | or they go poof during the sailfish upgrade | 18:29 |
| lbt | (and would need to be pre-built and pre-QA'ed too) | 18:29 |
| lbt | merlin1991: yes | 18:29 |
| lbt | can we push RC's to OBS ? | 18:29 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: I answered that earlier, imo it should be possible that we provide a build-target for an upcoming update 1-2 days before to have chum ready when we push the update out | 18:29 |
| Stskeeps | post-upgrade hooks? .. | 18:29 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: okay, but something needs to do the upgrade ;) | 18:30 |
| lbt | ... he's a fast typer | 18:30 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: as store client wouldn't do it | 18:30 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: have a small chum agent check after reboot if version changed, and if so, run update? | 18:31 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: i guess that could do | 18:31 |
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| Quu | i am small agent | 18:31 |
| Quu | rawr | 18:31 |
| lbt | anything that had a direct == depend on something in SFOS would get kicked by pk even if chum had a candidate in next release repo | 18:32 |
| lbt | eg Qt | 18:33 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: my main worry is getting feature support with 3rd party isolation ready, everything else will be simple :p | 18:33 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. feature integration deadlines are always fun | 18:33 |
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| Stskeeps | okay, let's assume for a moment that store apps could build against chum.. what benefits/problems/etc would you see? | 18:35 |
| walokra | how's chum apps differ on store apps when ABI changes? doesn't both need updates? | 18:35 |
| Stskeeps | walokra: store apps aren't admitted if they rely on ABI-problematic libraries | 18:36 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: store apps? you mean harbour? | 18:36 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: yes | 18:36 |
| lbt | that would be quite different to current plans (but very cool) | 18:36 |
| Stskeeps | i'm just playing hypothetical long-term here | 18:36 |
| merlin1991 | why should store apps build against chum? | 18:36 |
| walokra | Stskeeps: ah, i see | 18:36 |
| Stskeeps | merlin1991: well, chum could provide community or in-progress APIs.. | 18:36 |
| lbt | merlin1991: real community participation for providing libs and making chum a 1st class repo | 18:36 |
| merlin1991 | makes no sense when you limit what is in harbour compared to what can be installed from jolla store due to settings re chum | 18:37 |
| lbt | well - 2nd class to be fair | 18:37 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm just trying to find extra benefits, fwiw | 18:37 |
| merlin1991 | having the situation of "it's in store, but you need to enable this other thing with huge warnings if you really want to install it ..." | 18:37 |
| lbt | merlin1991: yeah - but we (community) get to write the semi-official repo libs in the open | 18:38 |
| fk_lx | merlin1991: warning with "hair loss" :) | 18:38 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: my favourite type of warning in your mails ^ | 18:39 |
| fk_lx | about Sailfish on Android | 18:39 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: benefit : seamless(!) upgrade for chum users | 18:39 |
| Stskeeps | hmm | 18:40 |
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| Stskeeps | you're kinda right, yes | 18:40 |
| Stskeeps | hmm... | 18:40 |
| lbt | more capability for Harbour apps | 18:40 |
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| lbt | (nb you didn't ask for risks .. please don't they're scary) | 18:41 |
| lbt | lets look to +ve first | 18:41 |
| Stskeeps | (what could possibly go wrong..) | 18:41 |
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| lbt | a genuinely collaborative approach | 18:42 |
| lbt | anyone else ? | 18:43 |
| lbt | what kinds of things would go into chum that are not doable in Harbour? | 18:43 |
| lbt | tbr: ? | 18:43 |
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| tbr | lbt: daemons, telepathy plugins, ... | 18:44 |
| M4rtinK | I guess for example the community l10n for one | 18:44 |
| Yaniel | maliit plugins | 18:44 |
| tbr | good point | 18:44 |
| fk_lx | M4rtinK: +1 | 18:44 |
| M4rtinK | well, until it is picked up officially | 18:44 |
| M4rtinK | hopefully :) | 18:44 |
| Yaniel | yep | 18:44 |
| fk_lx | :) | 18:44 |
| M4rtinK | patch manager stuff (also until hopefully integrated) | 18:44 |
| Morpog_PC__ | lbt everything that gets blocked in harbour | 18:44 |
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| lbt | Morpog_PC__: wrong answer :D | 18:45 |
| lbt | tbr: I think this would force the community to be more restrictive tbh | 18:45 |
| merlin1991 | daemons are a big point | 18:45 |
| locusf | lbt: alternate homescreens | 18:45 |
| Morpog_PC__ | err, not blocked but rejected because of harbour limitations ;) | 18:45 |
| lbt | not to say we should not block them - but with great power.... | 18:45 |
| M4rtinK | ..come spectacular explosions :) | 18:45 |
| Stskeeps | i should take some time to read the old maemo.org extras-by-default threads | 18:46 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: exactly - and then getting it restored would take a long long time | 18:46 |
| Yaniel | M4rtinK: haha | 18:46 |
| tbr | lbt: we shouldn't make chum another harbour though | 18:46 |
| lbt | tbr: no | 18:46 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: +1 | 18:46 |
| tbr | lbt: if it's easier to do things with OR, people will give Jolla the finger | 18:46 |
| lbt | tbr: but I think we should ask for responsible maintainership ? | 18:46 |
| M4rtinK | also another category for chum: runtimes | 18:46 |
| Stskeeps | that was fwiw maemo.org extras-devel's hardest problem | 18:46 |
| Stskeeps | er, extra | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | s | 18:47 |
| M4rtinK | Extras has haskell, prolog, Mono, Java, RenPy,... | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | that it was just easier to push (and use) extras-devel | 18:47 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: what were the actual problems nokia experienced with extras? | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: the problems weren't nokia, in practice, it was community's | 18:47 |
| lbt | do we have anyone who may know? | 18:47 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: it needs some well timed explosions in testing/devel ;) | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | that there wasn't a lot of interest in 'stable' or 'testing' level | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | and developers didn't care enough to push themselves through testing | 18:48 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I see that potential too | 18:48 |
| tbr | so devel was like OR? | 18:48 |
| lbt | tbr: yes | 18:48 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: pretty much | 18:48 |
| lbt | scary mess | 18:48 |
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| tbr | mhehehe | 18:48 |
| Yaniel | that is devel | 18:48 |
| merlin1991 | maemo extras made the mistake to allow a "devel" repo where first stage promotion to testing was just a click away for the developer, so devel turned out to be the "just upload to it" repo | 18:48 |
| lbt | not so much "if" as "when" it breaks your device | 18:48 |
| M4rtinK | the community QA interface in Extras sucks for one | 18:49 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: what I said earlier about "enabling chum on devices" I meant the _stable_ branch of chum. for _testing_ or _devel_ branches of chum I'd expect people using it to enable developer mode and add the repo there | 18:49 |
| M4rtinK | so most people do not bother | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: nod | 18:49 |
| lbt | aard_: +10 | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | aard_: still, people were persistent.. | 18:49 |
| merlin1991 | aard_: +1 | 18:49 |
| M4rtinK | if it was integrated in the UI, it wouldn't be such an issue | 18:49 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: I'd resist that for the reasons Stskeeps mentioned | 18:49 |
| M4rtinK | even better if Jolla account could be used, not yet another one | 18:49 |
| lbt | devs need a big motivation to do QA | 18:50 |
| tbr | lbt: that's why OR is hugely popular with devs. zero QA | 18:50 |
| lbt | I've seen some of the Harbour apps that fail for really simple reasons (like 'doesn't work' ) | 18:50 |
| lbt | tbr: yes | 18:50 |
| tbr | the magic of the free market err karma err reputation? will solve it! | 18:50 |
| * lbt sprinkles karma dust | 18:50 | |
| Stskeeps | anyway - i have enough data to brew on now and explain chum vs other things now | 18:50 |
| Stskeeps | thanks guys | 18:50 |
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| merlin1991 | tbr karma was the maemo way to value devlopers, it was calculated from wiki contriubtions ... | 18:51 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: np - useful brain primer for tuesday | 18:51 |
| tbr | for one thing OBS is great at pulling teeth about missing dependencies etc | 18:51 |
| lbt | yup | 18:51 |
| Stskeeps | (also thanks to aard_ for pitching in with technical enablers) | 18:51 |
| tbr | but if the developer does their homework and it builds cleanly on SDK, then it's at most adding some dependencies to sped | 18:52 |
| merlin1991 | see http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma | 18:52 |
| tbr | spec | 18:52 |
| aard_ | tbr: the lack of QA is exactly why we can't endorse OR (and won't test with it in our release testing) | 18:52 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: aard_: I think keepin chum enabled during update may be the only sane option. Community would *have* to collaborate on freezing Chum and RCs though | 18:52 |
| tbr | aard_: the lack of QA is why I have such a strong negative opinion of them too | 18:52 |
| Stskeeps | one more thing while i remember.. | 18:52 |
| Stskeeps | do you see anything in chum that'd help in 'make contribution to sailfishos itself' easier? | 18:52 |
| tbr | aard_: as a thankyou I get insults on the mailing list whenever I get near the topic of OR | 18:52 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: yes - libs | 18:53 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: yes, it can potentially bring platform things too | 18:53 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: the problem for that would be that any 'patched mw' would be rejected I think | 18:53 |
| tbr | see telepathy plugins | 18:53 |
| aard_ | tbr: I gave up arguing after the first time OR broke our updates :) | 18:53 |
| tbr | etc | 18:53 |
| fk_lx | tbr: strrrrong people behind it :) | 18:53 |
| tbr | strrrrrong with the curse words, yeah | 18:53 |
| lbt | tbr: yes - plugins and contributions rather than fixes | 18:54 |
| tbr | correct | 18:54 |
| tbr | fixes would be problematic anyway | 18:54 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: could you see chum help with fixes and mods to sfos? I can't see how | 18:54 |
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| tbr | as you don't want to touch libs that are on device, there be dragons | 18:54 |
| aard_ | lbt: it might make sense to have two chum repos -- one which only has packages not replacing packages of core sailfishos (enabled per default), and one which contains patched mw (disabled per default, and definitely disabled during updates) | 18:54 |
| lbt | aard_: I'd support that - but not link it to chum per-se | 18:55 |
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| tbr | lbt: +1 | 18:55 |
| M4rtinK | well, OR is the only thing keeping most devs I know on Sailfish | 18:55 |
| lbt | more some kind of contrib | 18:55 |
| M4rtinK | I think the only developer I personally met that has an app in Harbour is lbt | 18:55 |
| lbt | and OBS lets us build a chum-contrib against it easily | 18:55 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: I have 2! | 18:55 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: yes, because jolla has slept through the whole community repo thing, ignoring all wakeup calls | 18:55 |
| aard_ | not getting packages masking sailfishos-packages in should be checked for by the automated promotion checks to stable (that should be in the proposed QA guidelines from you) | 18:56 |
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| aard_ | tbr: if sleeping through then only because some developers insisted on using the remaining 7 hours every day for sleeping :p | 18:56 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: the idea of having something like chum was around before OR jumped on the jolla band waggon | 18:56 |
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| M4rtinK | case in point: Foursail, Czech/Slovak translations, Mitakuuluu, thps apps and even modRana... | 18:56 |
| tbr | aard_: prioritization is jolla's responsibility | 18:57 |
| lbt | tbr: https://together.jolla.com/question/39360/official-announcement-heads-up-delaying-one-release-during-summer/ takes a lot to wake a sailor :) | 18:58 |
| aard_ | "get device out and stable" is first priority, or we just don't exist. we just fully reached that a short time ago, and now we're moving onto other things (like more community involvement) | 18:58 |
| lbt | and even with community hat I can respect how much work Jolla has to do to just ship. So I'd not call it sleeping through the calls to action :) | 18:59 |
| tbr | aard_: sure, it comes at significant cost though. like having to clean up this whole OR mess | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: btw, what you're expecting out of the meeting is that there's somebody from jolla who's empowered to commit us to certain direction based on meeting input? or specific people | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | for your particular topic | 18:59 |
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| aard_ | tbr: the cost is still less than "stop existing" | 19:00 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: probably, because now everyone wears community hats | 19:00 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I expect a statement from jolla (the company™), yes. I believe I said that already. | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: alright | 19:00 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: I don't, I don't have time for community. I'm here only with my jolla-hat :p | 19:00 |
| fk_lx | aard_: well I know you are always yourself and honest :) | 19:00 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: not like I didn't ask for it in public and in private a dozen times already | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: :nod: | 19:00 |
| fk_lx | aard_: btw you don't have Jolla hat (logo) on Together :) | 19:01 |
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| lbt | tbr: I suggest you take my 1) 2) list from before then | 19:01 |
| lbt | it's a reasonable ask I think | 19:01 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: yeah, it's not mandatory to have it, so there's some process to ask for it. I couldn't care less about having it (plus most people know I'm working for jolla anyway), so I didn't bother | 19:01 |
| tbr | lbt: sorry? I lost you | 19:01 |
| lbt | check the log :) | 19:01 |
| fk_lx | aard_: :) | 19:02 |
| tbr | *sigh* | 19:02 |
| * tbr is AFK, reading logs | 19:02 | |
| * Stskeeps will probably go afk for the night too | 19:02 | |
| lbt | tbr: 39mins ago | 19:02 |
| * Quu gets another beer | 19:02 | |
| aard_ | lbt: so you check the timestamps, but you're too lazy to copy and paste it? :p | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | ok, time to get some rest.. yet another easter breakfast tomorrow with likely baby wakeup at 5:30.. | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | something that'd help a lot is if somebody can grok at if it's easy to use packagekit api to just get packages from a certain repo name | 19:03 |
| lbt | 1) Settings -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow, tick Install Chum client. Done | 19:03 |
| lbt | 2) Store -> Chum client and select install -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow. Done | 19:03 |
| tbr | lbt: you mean the two step process you proposed? | 19:03 |
| lbt | and context around it too | 19:04 |
| lbt | yeah - that's all :P | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | then a 'chum store' should be easy | 19:04 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: iirc it should be possible, but packagekit is on a similar level like xulrunner for me -- I'm happy I forgot the details :p | 19:04 |
| walokra | i myself use openrepos just because it's faster to provide new versions than harbour and it has web view to show your app (i have my own site also) | 19:05 |
| walokra | my app is also in harbour | 19:05 |
| tbr | lbt: well, some general commitment would already be enough, but yeah, it's a sensible direction | 19:05 |
| tbr | lbt: like commiting to actually work with the community on this and asking the community for X, Y, Z | 19:06 |
| M4rtinK | I'must also say that the OpenRepos UI is in my opinion currently much better that Harbour :) | 19:06 |
| M4rtinK | both the app and WebUI | 19:06 |
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| fk_lx | speaking about web view, anybody knows when it's comming - request on Together has a lot of votes: https://together.jolla.com/question/2721/jolla-application-store-web-version/ | 19:06 |
| walokra | whatever direction you go, there's a need for a web view to the app store | 19:06 |
| tbr | lbt: right now we're still at square zero, for all I know jolla might be just happy with OR and people using that (ignoring the last hour here) | 19:06 |
| aard_ | tbr: once I see a sensible QA policy you can get my commitment as release guy :p | 19:06 |
| tbr | and yes, the thought corssed my mind more than once | 19:06 |
| walokra | and i'm also concerned about QA on OR | 19:07 |
| fk_lx | aard_: btw. who is the store guy? or it's a secret? ;) | 19:07 |
| tbr | aard_: not necessarily something I'd like to take on alone though, I tend to favor discussion and input | 19:07 |
| walokra | you can't know what you get :) | 19:07 |
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| lbt | fk_lx: what do you mean 'store guy' ? | 19:08 |
| lbt | QA? app? backend? | 19:08 |
| tbr | lbt: note how much work expliclitly went into making sailfish OR proof, while zero happened around chum | 19:08 |
| M4rtinK | walokra: well, if it is an application of a developer you have known for years :) | 19:08 |
| fk_lx | lbt: responsible for the store app, store etc. kind of manager | 19:08 |
| aard_ | fk_lx: I'm not sure if I should name something here. we have one doing mainly store, though what goes into store overlaps a bit into releases, and engineers have a say as well | 19:08 |
| lbt | fk_lx: manager? | 19:08 |
| lbt | ewww | 19:08 |
| fk_lx | lbt: chief engineer :) | 19:08 |
| walokra | M4rtinK: just entered this "world" when I got Jolla :) | 19:08 |
| lbt | tbr: yeah - OR was causing actual problems | 19:08 |
| fk_lx | lbt: I mixed up names ;) | 19:08 |
| M4rtinK | walokra: well, then download numbers & comment I guess :) | 19:09 |
| M4rtinK | *comments | 19:09 |
| fk_lx | lbt, aard_ : chief store enginner | 19:09 |
| walokra | M4rtinK: well, people tend to download whatever | 19:09 |
| tbr | lbt: that should be booked as "cost for not having chum" ;) | 19:09 |
| aard_ | tbr: there was no special work to make sailfish OR proof, that was just generic stuff we needed to do anyway. just that some of the things happened a month earlier than originally thought as OR broke more things than expected | 19:10 |
| lbt | tbr: hehe | 19:10 |
| aard_ | and the work on 'generic stuff' there is not done yet, some of the things we'll need to make chum work are still missing. and again, that's not something we're doing for chum, but just something that needs to be there to have it work | 19:10 |
| tbr | aard_: I know, but OR was repeatedly mentioned around releases and changelogs. that's waaaaay more official attention than chum ever got. that's my point. | 19:10 |
| tbr | regardless of why the work was done | 19:11 |
| aard_ | tbr: I think the only thing we mentioned was "if you have OR you're breaking stuff. have fun" | 19:11 |
| Stskeeps | log.04-15-2014:[17:06:30]<grande_> #info Karl Granström, Jolla store & Harbour / sailor | 19:11 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: thanks :) | 19:11 |
| Stskeeps | prolly the guy to prod, but, be aware that he's a bit huggy | 19:11 |
| tbr | heh, the community meeting becomes public reference ;) | 19:11 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: for beeing informative | 19:11 |
| lbt | tbr: what happens in irc does not stay in irc! | 19:12 |
| tbr | indeed | 19:12 |
| aard_ | tbr: so, if you break our next update I'll mention chum in release notes as well :p | 19:12 |
| Stskeeps | also, we don't have a 'chief store engineer' | 19:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:12 |
| tbr | aard_: please do, we'll be famoussssss | 19:12 |
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| Stskeeps | in fact, i wouldn't want to wish that title on anybody.. | 19:12 |
| Stskeeps | fk_lx: any queries regarding store, harbour goes through developer care, though, but if you bump into grande, you can have a talk | 19:13 |
| aard_ | Stskeeps: probably jope is closest to a chief store engineer, at least he's storing all the devices :p | 19:13 |
| M4rtinK | call it releng :) | 19:13 |
| Stskeeps | releng is just a fancy name for "The People Who Say No" | 19:14 |
| tbr | oh, is that the moment where we also throw "devops" in, just to get closer to bs-bingo? | 19:14 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: ok thanks for information Chief R&D disruptor Officer :D | 19:14 |
| M4rtinK | and docker | 19:14 |
| M4rtinK | Sailfish should support Docker ! :D | 19:15 |
| tbr | virtualization and containers! | 19:15 |
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| tbr | *bzzzzzzp* | 19:15 |
| M4rtinK | and os-tree and ATOMIC updates ! :) | 19:15 |
| Aard | tbr: if you port our kernel to at least 3.10 we'll add container support. :p | 19:16 |
| Yaniel | tbr: "what happens in irc does not stay in irc" I really hope so because irc has proven the most successful place for learning by osmosis | 19:16 |
| fk_lx | Sailfish should support community :P !!! | 19:17 |
| tbr | Aard: I've been using LXC for quite long, no need for 3.10 ;) | 19:18 |
| Aard | tbr: there are some additional control group features that would be pretty nice to have which our kernel does not have | 19:18 |
| tbr | yeah, I know there was movement recently | 19:18 |
| tbr | still could be a fun exercise to get LXC going on the jolla. shouldn't be too hard | 19:19 |
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| CraigA | anyone in here with netflix feel like helping me test something for a few minutes? | 19:26 |
| walokra | CraigA: test what? | 19:31 |
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| CraigA | I need to test Netflix Canada support for my DNS service, but that would require someone outside Canada. | 19:33 |
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| walokra | I'm in Finland | 19:34 |
| CraigA | would you be willing to spare 5 minutes to help me test? | 19:34 |
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| walokra | just say what | 19:34 |
| CraigA | may I pm you? | 19:34 |
| walokra | of course :) | 19:34 |
| walokra | the canadians, always so gentlemen :) | 19:35 |
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| lbt | tbr: lxc and systemd are (will be) mutually exclusive | 19:46 |
| lbt | until cgroup controller delegation is resolved | 19:46 |
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| Aard | lbt: when did they break things? | 19:52 |
| lbt | a year or so ago | 19:53 |
| Aard | don't see any issues with systemd-208 | 19:53 |
| lbt | http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-June/011521.html | 19:53 |
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| lbt | at that point I dropped the idea of lxc contained SDK | 19:55 |
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| tbr | lbt: oh, ok, interesting | 20:01 |
| Aard | looks like the current way would still work for a while, and once it stops working something like the sdk would not need to care about it -- you just need recent enough lxc | 20:01 |
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| M4rtinK | well at least whatever Docker uses works fine with systemd | 20:07 |
| tbr | didn't docker recently go NIH and invent their own container? | 20:08 |
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| * Aard has no idea what docker is | 20:09 | |
| tbr | it used to be a wrapper around lxc | 20:09 |
| tbr | never used it | 20:09 |
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| tbr | but then I only used lxc in the "here's user space, here's init, run!" version, not the single app scenario | 20:10 |
| Aard | I gave up on wrappers around container or virtualization long time ago, after having a look at libvirt | 20:10 |
| pp | it's evil but just look at the command lines libvirt gives to qemu, wouldn't want to handle those manually either :-) | 20:12 |
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| Aard | pp: I nowadays have a small shell script just handling the usecases I need. it just works | 20:13 |
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| Aard | libvirt has a shitload of dependencies I don't want on a machine, and breaks stuff in very interesting ways | 20:14 |
| lbt | unshare is enough for the sdk | 20:15 |
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| M4rtinK | libvirt is fine :) | 20:41 |
| M4rtinK | the real fun starts with virt-manager :) | 20:41 |
| M4rtinK | a marvel of engineering :) | 20:41 |
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