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| GentSir | For the guys who were talking about security earlier, TextSecure for Android is great. Source code is available and it'd be awesome to see on Sailfish: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/ | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| special | GentSir: https://together.jolla.com/question/10751/whisperpush-encrypted-sms/ | 00:15 |
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| GentSir | special: The main complaint for secure on there is discovery for other users. The software to host your own TextSecure server is available on WhisperSystem github. | 00:17 |
| GentSir | Is there any porting effort in progress? | 00:17 |
| special | there is not | 00:17 |
| special | and, I think having fragmentation by platform even when using the same software sucks | 00:18 |
| special | I know there's official work on textsecure for iOS, maybe they'll improve that situation | 00:18 |
| GentSir | Certainly they're not going to wall off Android and iOS users | 00:19 |
| special | which means they can't depend on the native push features of those platforms (without some intermediary) | 00:19 |
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| GentSir | If they've already solved communication between two platforms, adding a third shouldn't be hard | 00:19 |
| GentSir | special: SMS can always be the fallback. Best solution for an intermediary is to have the service for it easily replicated. Think Jabber or Email. | 00:21 |
| special | textsecure's protocol implemented like OTR, over arbitrary transports, would be interesting | 00:21 |
| special | (textsecure offering a few things over standard OTR, like asynchronous and offline messaging) | 00:21 |
| bencoh | to be honest, I'd rather see some gpp/otr-powered stuff | 00:22 |
| GentSir | bencoh: gpp? | 00:22 |
| bencoh | gpg* | 00:22 |
| GentSir | Oh | 00:22 |
| special | I don't have any time to put into it now myself | 00:22 |
| bencoh | but ascii-armored openpgp might not fit in (short) sms | 00:23 |
| special | but it would be great to see some community work on secure messaging. There seems to be a lot of interest. | 00:23 |
| GentSir | I really think it would be cool to see the asynchronous messaging additons to OTR rolled back into the main OTR implementation | 00:23 |
| bencoh | hmm, what's so special about async, regarding otr ? | 00:23 |
| bencoh | isn't it already meant to work for async messaging ? | 00:24 |
| special | no | 00:24 |
| GentSir | nope | 00:24 |
| special | afk. | 00:24 |
| GentSir | bencoh: The way I understand it, current OTR relies on maintaining a constant connection to the instant messaging server. For mobile users that's often difficult or impossible | 00:25 |
| special | to the peer, more specifically | 00:25 |
| special | it rotates the key for every message, so you have to be in constant round trip communication | 00:25 |
| special | textsecure has a blog post about how they solve that | 00:25 |
| bencoh | GentSir: seems odd | 00:25 |
| GentSir | Yes, my knowledge is definitely lacking on many of the specifics | 00:25 |
| bencoh | otherwise we wouldn't have otr working over irc using perl plugins for irssi, for instance | 00:26 |
| GentSir | Well | 00:27 |
| bencoh | hmm, there has to be some key exchange at some point, and if you want to rotate it you need some frequent exchange, true | 00:27 |
| GentSir | TextSecure is just special in that it makes using encryption on mobile nearly painless and transparent | 00:27 |
| bencoh | but the messaging part isn't tide to it | 00:27 |
| bencoh | tied* | 00:29 |
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| GentSir | bencoh: This is a great post: https://whispersystems.org/blog/asynchronous-security/ | 00:31 |
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| esperegu | anyone knows if there is a list of devices models that will be supported by jolla? | 07:40 |
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| Jope | the final list hasn't been published yet | 07:42 |
| Jope | but you can guess from the MWC offering what two of them will be at least | 07:42 |
| esperegu | Jope: whats that? | 07:43 |
| Jope | there was this big tradeshow in barcelona this week | 07:43 |
| Jope | jolla had a stand there | 07:43 |
| Jope | and showed some android devices running sailfish | 07:43 |
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| Jope | so based on what was shown there, you can guess what devices might be supported in the future | 07:44 |
| Jope | there was a nexus 4 and some version of the sgs3 | 07:44 |
| Jope | and some other phone I don't remember | 07:44 |
| tbr | and a nexus7-2012 by the looks | 07:44 |
| tbr | and IIRC a xiaomi or such | 07:44 |
| tbr | the usual media suspects will have details | 07:44 |
| Jope | ype, there was plenty of coverage | 07:45 |
| esperegu | hmm. so its even important which version of the sgs3 one hase | 07:46 |
| esperegu | has | 07:46 |
| Jope | yes, it is important | 07:46 |
| Jope | mobile phones are not like PCs | 07:46 |
| Jope | the OS needs to be adapted for each device separately | 07:46 |
| Jope | just take a look at cyanogenmod | 07:46 |
| Jope | they have dozens of downloads | 07:46 |
| Jope | some samsung models have like six variants they support | 07:47 |
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| pp_ | woot, you can soon get phones and TOH's from verkkokauppa :D | 08:32 |
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| aleksander0m | hey; can anyone tell me what's the telephony chipset used in the Jolla phone? Is it a Qualcomm device? | 09:45 |
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| Jope | http://www.gsmarena.com/jolla_jolla-5457.php | 09:47 |
| aleksander0m | Qualcomm Snapdragon 400; cool, thanks | 09:48 |
| aleksander0m | is it using upstream Linux kernel with qmi_wwan + the QMI support in ofono for the telephony stack? | 09:48 |
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| tbr | aleksander0m: it's using a vendor provided androidBSP kernel | 09:50 |
| tbr | aleksander0m: for telephony it uses RIL + ofono (customized to talk to ril, open source found on github) | 09:50 |
| tbr | it's virtually impossible to get silicon vendor support for a vanilla kernel | 09:51 |
| aleksander0m | aha; so Android's RIL layer and ofono customized to talk to the RIL? so ofono is just providing the common ofono API on top of the RIL? | 09:51 |
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| tbr | correct | 09:51 |
| aleksander0m | I don't think it would be very difficult to avoid requiring the android RIL layer at least | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | well, feel free to try, the current solution works quite well.. | 09:53 |
| aleksander0m | Stskeeps, oh hey, I saw you in the MWC I believe | 09:54 |
| Stskeeps | probably :) | 09:54 |
| aleksander0m | Stskeeps, I'm trying to figure out how hard would it be to avoid the android-ized kernel for these kind of devices; and e.g. try ModemManager with libqmi in them | 09:55 |
| aleksander0m | it's a bit sad that ofono acts just as an intermediate when it already has built-in QMI support | 09:55 |
| Stskeeps | aleksander0m: i think for us it comes down to that we do have some additional ODM-specific hooks into the stack as well | 09:56 |
| Stskeeps | for additional outside-QMI stuff | 09:56 |
| Stskeeps | but, our platform is open for experimentation | 09:56 |
| aleksander0m | which kind of outside-QMI stuff, if that's open to say? | 09:57 |
| aleksander0m | Stskeeps, and by any chance, do you know if the Ubuntu phone uses the same approach? (i.e. android-ized kernel, RIL and ofono just as intermediate) | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | think fast dormancy, positioning enablers, etc | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it does | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | though let's be honest, there's no ubuntu phone on the market ;) | 09:58 |
| aleksander0m | but that's all handled with QMI as well | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 09:58 |
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| aleksander0m | Stskeeps, ;) The Jolla phone looked pretty nice actually; nice to see it uses good old Tracker | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | we have taken the approach that we need to be able to spread quick to many different devices | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | so even if we could have selected QMI, for reasons of spreading, we chose to opt for ril | 09:59 |
| aleksander0m | yeah, makes sense of course | 09:59 |
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| Kiranos_ | Stskeeps: | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | At #Marble | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | [07:37:40] <Kiranos_> GSOC: idea is it to big a project to start jolla / sailfishos support? | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | [21:20:15] <Earthwings> hi Kiranos_ | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | [21:20:38] <Earthwings> Kiranos_: sounds doable to me, if (important) hardware is there to test with | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | is this something jolla could do? | 10:13 |
| Kiranos_ | over at Marble it has a working n900 port but still lacking sailfishos support | 10:14 |
| Stskeeps | mmm mail me | 10:17 |
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| Stskeeps | carsten.munk at jolla.com | 10:17 |
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| CoderCandy | Uhh, something scary happened | 11:09 |
| ggabriel_ | chucky? | 11:09 |
| Pnuu | monday? | 11:10 |
| CoderCandy | When I woke up, my jolla which had been charging over night had its indicator led flashing bright cyan | 11:10 |
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| CoderCandy | And was super hot | 11:10 |
| CoderCandy | It didnt wake up on lock-key press | 11:10 |
| CoderCandy | then I paniced and pulled out the battery | 11:11 |
| CoderCandy | Seems fine now though | 11:11 |
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| ggabriel_ | strange | 11:12 |
| ggabriel_ | luckily, not chucky tho | 11:12 |
| Pnuu | not even monday \o/ | 11:12 |
| CoderCandy | Any ideas of what happened? | 11:13 |
| ggabriel_ | i think you can check /proc/cmdline or something like that for clues | 11:13 |
| ggabriel_ | since you lost the log | 11:13 |
| CoderCandy | Or where to look and what to look for in logs? | 11:13 |
| FireFly | You could look in /etc/mce/20hybris-led.ini to figure out what the cyan LED tried to tell you (also hi) | 11:14 |
| FireFly | "PatternBatteryChargingFlat=50;4;0;0;0;7fbfff" ← this seems potentially relevant | 11:14 |
| clau2 | I usually leave it charging over night, and luckily have never had this issue. | 11:15 |
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| ggabriel_ | me 2 | 11:15 |
| FireFly | Me neither | 11:16 |
| clau2 | but it's quite scary | 11:16 |
| ggabriel_ | it may have gone into some sort of loop | 11:16 |
| CoderCandy | FireFly: hi, and BatteryChargingFlat? | 11:16 |
| clau2 | heat and batteries don't go along very well | 11:16 |
| ggabriel_ | cold neither ;-) | 11:16 |
| chem|st | CoderCandy: sounds like the burning S4 | 11:16 |
| FireFly | I dunno | 11:17 |
| FireFly | It sounded relevant-ish given the symptoms, not sure what would actually cause that state | 11:17 |
| clau2 | CoderCandy, you should make a post on together.jolla.com about it, maybe someone will have an answer for you | 11:17 |
| CoderCandy | Fun thing, when it startex it was at 95% battery | 11:17 |
| CoderCandy | After a full night of charging. | 11:17 |
| CoderCandy | started* | 11:17 |
| CoderCandy | clau2: yeah, thus my panic :p | 11:17 |
| clau2 | or write care@jolla.com, though that may take a while | 11:18 |
| * CoderCandy don't like devices that crash and get hot while charging | 11:18 | |
| CoderCandy | Especially when it's next to my head in my bed while I'm sleeping... | 11:18 |
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| ggabriel_ | hehe | 11:19 |
| ggabriel_ | i learnt to leave the phone as far as possible as otherwise i kinda ignore the alarm ;-) | 11:19 |
| clau2 | :) | 11:19 |
| CoderCandy | ggabriel_: I don't use jolla as alarm, it's not powerful enough to wake me | 11:19 |
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| ggabriel_ | CoderCandy: i can certainly hear it, but somehow the n9 wakes me up better | 11:20 |
| CoderCandy | I use a radio clock on max volume, between two AM frequencies. | 11:20 |
| ggabriel_ | it may be the ringtone or me that is too used to it | 11:20 |
| clau2 | maybe someone will build a TOH with electric shocks as alarm? :D | 11:20 |
| FireFly | CoderCandy: I've had spontaneous reboots where the device first said like 4% when booting up again, then changing its mind saying 46% (which would be correct) after a few seconds | 11:20 |
| CoderCandy | I'll make a post about it on together when I have a better device to make the post fron | 11:22 |
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| CoderCandy | from* | 11:22 |
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| CoderCandy | I don't like to type long things on touch | 11:22 |
| clau2 | http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsung-galaxy-s4-catches-fire-while-charging-overnight | 11:23 |
| clau2 | :| | 11:23 |
| ggabriel_ | it's not a bug, it's a feature | 11:23 |
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| FireFly | The jolla just wanted to keep you warm | 11:24 |
| ggabriel_ | you know what you are buying when you are buying samsung anyway | 11:24 |
| FireFly | emergency radiator other-half | 11:24 |
| ggabriel_ | lol | 11:24 |
| CoderCandy | That would be bad, if the phone say, is next to you in an easily flammable bed... | 11:24 |
| CoderCandy | a.k.a snow white OH | 11:24 |
| clau2 | putting out a Li-ion burning... that must be fun :| | 11:25 |
| CoderCandy | Throw water on it! Oh wait... | 11:25 |
| clau2 | "Extinguishing this fire is dangerous as lithium burns violently when it comes in contact with water or moisture in the air; a suitable waterless fire extinguisher is recommended." | 11:26 |
| clau2 | from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery | 11:26 |
| clau2 | :) | 11:26 |
| clau2 | I wonder if it's a faulty battery, or something else with the hw and/or sw. | 11:27 |
| CoderCandy | But yeah, I'd probably try to suffocate or contain the fire | 11:27 |
| Acce | hmm, heating TOH | 11:27 |
| Acce | tazer TOH.. | 11:27 |
| Acce | for your protection | 11:27 |
| CoderCandy | clau2: I've also had major problems with the random crash/reboot bug | 11:28 |
| CoderCandy | So might be something faulty | 11:28 |
| ggabriel_ | CoderCandy: since latest upgrade? | 11:28 |
| ggabriel_ | or since day 1? | 11:28 |
| CoderCandy | Since last update | 11:28 |
| CoderCandy | I did a factory reset yesterday though | 11:28 |
| * FireFly has also only had that since last update | 11:28 | |
| ggabriel_ | i wonder how to reproduce that | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | i mean the reboots | 11:29 |
| CoderCandy | ggabriel_: easy | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | how? | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | i do get the connection issues | 11:29 |
| CoderCandy | Come to sweden, stand outside the hall prison | 11:29 |
| clau2 | has anyone figured what the phones with this problem have in common? | 11:29 |
| CoderCandy | crash device | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | but my jolla won't reboot on its own | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | lol | 11:29 |
| ggabriel_ | i've been in sweden, but not outside the hall prison | 11:29 |
| CoderCandy | Hall has GSM jammers | 11:29 |
| FireFly | Aha | 11:30 |
| CoderCandy | And when I passed it with a bus | 11:30 |
| CoderCandy | it crashex | 11:30 |
| clau2 | hmm, that's interesting | 11:30 |
| CoderCandy | every time | 11:30 |
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| ggabriel_ | ok, so it may be related to the connection issue | 11:30 |
| FireFly | That was a theory proposed on together, too | 11:30 |
| FireFly | and it fits well with my experiences with crashes, which has mainly been while on the train | 11:30 |
| FireFly | in tunnels and whatnot | 11:30 |
| ggabriel_ | makes sense, as a reboot fixes the connection problems :P | 11:30 |
| CoderCandy | Yup | 11:30 |
| clau2 | because one day I made an international call (expensive one!) and after I consumed all my credit the gsm provider cut off my internet connection too (although it was paid in advance) | 11:30 |
| ggabriel_ | maybe your jollas are smarter than mine and want to mend themselves | 11:30 |
| clau2 | so the phone went crazy trying to reconnect to 3g | 11:31 |
| clau2 | it was very laggy and I barely managed to disable 3g | 11:31 |
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| CoderCandy | clau2: that hapoened to me a couple of times too | 11:31 |
| clau2 | ggabriel_, it's probably some watchdog reseting the device when it goes crazy | 11:31 |
| CoderCandy | crazy watchdog? :p | 11:32 |
| ggabriel_ | could be | 11:32 |
| ggabriel_ | mine hasn't gone crazy, just lost the 3g connection | 11:32 |
| FireFly | I'd rather have a connection loss than an impromptu reboot :p | 11:32 |
| clau2 | though, I daily go in a place with no signal for ~10 minutes and never had a reset :| | 11:32 |
| FireFly | have you been using the connection at the time? | 11:33 |
| CoderCandy | clau2: I think it has to do with low-connection rather that no connection | 11:33 |
| clau2 | I've only had resets with the first version that I received the phone with, back in december | 11:33 |
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| CoderCandy | As in, the radio has to work hard in order to.maintain contact | 11:33 |
| FireFly | I've only noticed reboots when I'm actively using the 3G connection, either streaming music or browsing the web or some such | 11:33 |
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| clau2 | CoderCandy, it's possible. I suppose the phone may try to reconnect when it senses the signal, but it's not enough to keep the connection going. | 11:34 |
| CoderCandy | Yeah | 11:34 |
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| CoderCandy | And overloads the battery | 11:34 |
| CoderCandy | and crash | 11:34 |
| CoderCandy | Or something | 11:34 |
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| ggabriel_ | def the most annoying thing | 11:35 |
| ggabriel_ | will reevaluate in the next update | 11:35 |
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| CoderCandy | Although I didn't notice any abnormal powerusage when jolla randomly crashed | 11:35 |
| CoderCandy | I installed the hungermeter thing or whatever it ia called | 11:35 |
| CoderCandy | is* | 11:35 |
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| louisdk | How do I install android apps from the command line? | 11:37 |
| Jope | apkd-install /full/path/to.apk | 11:37 |
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| louisdk | Jope: thanks | 11:37 |
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| CoderCandy | But I read somewhere that next update should fix crash problem? | 11:38 |
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| TMavica | anyone install nokia x store to Jolla? | 11:58 |
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| Sandy28 | Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69 | 12:03 |
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| itbaron | Hi, Can somebody help me? I can't open account settings. I can't open browser, camera or any other jolla apps. Here is pastebin of accounts crash: http://pastebin.com/McMQi46b | 12:09 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: sw version? | 12:10 |
| itbaron | Factory reset is not working. It restarts phone but nothing is happening | 12:10 |
| itbaron | 1.0.3.8(naamankajärvi) | 12:10 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: why do you start jolla-settings from command line? | 12:10 |
| tbr | do you have usb connected during recovery? | 12:10 |
| tbr | IIRC it won't work if you do | 12:10 |
| itbaron | Because its crash when I start it from UI | 12:11 |
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| itbaron | No USB connected. | 12:11 |
| jake9xx | can you do pgrep dbus and count the entries, should be two | 12:11 |
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| itbaron | Yes I can se two dbus processes | 12:12 |
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| jake9xx | okies, that part works. can you do journald trace ; i.e. open root shell , run journalctl -fa and click on icon | 12:13 |
| jake9xx | f.ex that settings app | 12:13 |
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| pp_ | heh, nokia x's app analyzer is quite neat | 12:17 |
| pp_ | suppose it'd be pretty close to alien dalvik compatibility :-) | 12:17 |
| itbaron | here is output of journalctl -fa http://pastebin.com/7t45mgmG | 12:17 |
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| jake9xx | itbaron: whoa.. your accounts db is totally messed up... are you sure you have not done anything funny with user 'root' ? | 12:19 |
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| jake9xx | can you go into /home/nemo/.config and see if you have some stuff with 'root' as owner? | 12:20 |
| itbaron | I dont use root to anything. | 12:21 |
| jake9xx | ok, that's good | 12:21 |
| tbr | installed any apps from outside the jolla store? | 12:21 |
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| louisdk | Is there a feature to select an open to open a specific file with? | 12:22 |
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| itbaron | Nemo owns all ~/.config and groups are nemo and privileged | 12:22 |
| itbaron | Can I do factory reset trough cmd? | 12:23 |
| teve | why fs is RO? connmand[748]: open error Read-only file system | 12:24 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: sec.. | 12:24 |
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| VDVsx | louisdk, you mean open files of certain type with a specific app ? | 12:29 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: we're debating this internally what to do next. Please stay tuned | 12:30 |
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| jake9xx | itbaron: if you don't want to go via zendesk, can you get /var/log/zypp/history and send it to: poydan.alta@gmail.com | 12:32 |
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| itbaron | jake9xx: sure. I will send it. Thanks for help | 12:34 |
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| jake9xx | itbaron: in which country are you located? | 12:35 |
| itbaron | jake9xx: Finland | 12:35 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: ok good :) | 12:36 |
| louisdk | VDVsx: yes. I want myapp files to be opened with aptiode (android software manager) I'm looking at xdg | 12:36 |
| jake9xx | itbaron: pls check private msg window | 12:37 |
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| AL13N_work | maybe gestures should be a bit more tolerant... like if you want to move vertically, but you end up (due to thumb movement) to go horizontal a bit first, that when you proceed thumb movement further down that the movement would switch from horizontal back to vertical as intended | 12:38 |
| VDVsx | louisdk, ok, that dunno if is supported, afaik android apps are not registering MIME types, in case of native app wants to call android app | 12:38 |
| louisdk | VDVsx: Okay. Can I call an android app from the command line? | 12:39 |
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| VDVsx | louisdk, sorry dunno much about those android bits | 12:40 |
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| VDVsx | thp, do you know ? ^ | 12:40 |
| thp | louisdk: xdg-open /usr/share/applications/apkd_launcher_<...>.desktop (where <...> is the package and activity name, ls /usr/share/applications/apkd_launcher_* for a list of available ones) | 12:41 |
| louisdk | thp: thx | 12:42 |
| thp | louisdk: or apkd-launcher <apkfilename> <package>/<activity> (which is what the .desktop file does) | 12:42 |
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| louisdk | "apkd-launcher /data/app/cm.aptoide.pt.apk cm.aptoide.pt/cm.aptoide.pt.Start" works but if I put "~/Downloads/de-hafas-android-rejseplanen-200080-3304715.myapp" behind it nothing happens. Hmm. | 12:51 |
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| ballock | isn't ~ different in alien dalvik? | 12:54 |
| svuorela | louisdk: did you order green/black toh ? have you received them yet ? | 12:56 |
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| louisdk | svuorela: No to both | 12:56 |
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| parasemic | what do you guys think about the current methods of opening screen? | 13:15 |
| ggabriel_ | what are those methods? you mean double tap+power button? | 13:15 |
| goroboro | parasemic: you mean double tab and the power button? | 13:15 |
| goroboro | lol | 13:15 |
| ggabriel_ | great minds... | 13:15 |
| parasemic | i recently spammed my twitter full of shit, and now one mitäkuuluu conversation, all from the privacy of my pocket | 13:16 |
| goroboro | parasemic: I love double tab | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | never happened to me... | 13:16 |
| goroboro | s/tab/tap | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | but that could be a bug | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | or problem with the proximity sensor | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | you can test that tho | 13:16 |
| parasemic | volume button open the screen, which is so fucking stupid i cant even begin to tell how frustrating it is | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | with the csd(?) tool | 13:16 |
| ggabriel_ | the lock screen, yeah | 13:17 |
| ggabriel_ | if it opens anything else, it's a bug | 13:17 |
| parasemic | also, if you leave the phone on a table, screen open and app open, then put it in your pocket, pressing any button opens up back to the app bypassing lockscreen, which is horrible | 13:17 |
| ggabriel_ | you don't lock it before putting it in your pocket? | 13:17 |
| parasemic | i literally had to remove 20 tweets full of "wjsnkfajknwd" | 13:17 |
| parasemic | i mean, if i leave a phone on a table, then it shuts the screen by itself, and i put it in my pocket without manually opening and then closing the screen | 13:18 |
| ggabriel_ | is your proximity sensor working ok? | 13:18 |
| parasemic | as the screen "timeout" doesnt lock the screen anymore | 13:18 |
| ggabriel_ | again, that doesn't happen to me... | 13:18 |
| ggabriel_ | but if it doesn't anymore, it's a bug | 13:19 |
| goroboro | just testing now on my jolla | 13:19 |
| ggabriel_ | actually, i always lock manually | 13:19 |
| ggabriel_ | as my screen timeout is huge | 13:19 |
| Wnt | parasemic: the proximity sensor should block the phone from unlocking when it's inside your pocket | 13:19 |
| goroboro | parasemic: is actually right | 13:19 |
| parasemic | yeah, my screen time is huge too, but i often leave the phone open next to my KB and forget about it | 13:19 |
| goroboro | if you have an app open and the screen timesout... and then you press the volume button it opens at the app | 13:19 |
| parasemic | wnt: it only blocks the doubletab | 13:19 |
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| ggabriel_ | worth reporting to tjc | 13:20 |
| spiiroin | if the proximity sensor is covered, only power button should turn on the display | 13:20 |
| parasemic | i dont bother with tjc anymore, its just a clusterfuck | 13:20 |
| Wnt | parasemic: oh it doesn't block the power button unlock... | 13:20 |
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| ggabriel_ | still, even if it gets unlocked, it shouldn't go to the application | 13:20 |
| parasemic | yes | 13:21 |
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| Wnt | only seems to prevent volume buttons and the double tap from unlocking | 13:21 |
| ggabriel_ | well, if this isn't reported, how will jolla know it's an issue? :) | 13:21 |
| parasemic | im concidering making a huge email to them, but im holding on until "1.0" update | 13:21 |
| goroboro | Wnt: just tested it here... opened messaging... let the screen timeout... and then used either power button or volume | 13:21 |
| Wnt | going from lock screen straight to a application has happened mi few times | 13:21 |
| ggabriel_ | parasemic: yup, through zendesk is ok too | 13:21 |
| Wnt | but I cannot reproduce it | 13:21 |
| ggabriel_ | but tjc allows us to vote for it :) | 13:21 |
| Eztran | OK, always wondered this: how do people get so much pocket touchscreen usage on a capacitive screen? I've put phones using them in my pocket entirely unlocked before, with no result. | 13:22 |
| spiiroin | after autoblank, if the proximity is covered for few secs, the ui is locked before grace period ends | 13:22 |
| parasemic | we should find out how it exactly works, however | 13:22 |
| ggabriel_ | Eztran: electric legs man | 13:23 |
| parasemic | eztran: maybe its the cloth of your pockets. some are registered better than others | 13:23 |
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| parasemic | my jeans write "asödajnwidaw" allright | 13:23 |
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| Eztran | Weird, wouldn't have thought it varies that much. | 13:24 |
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| ggabriel_ | fwiw, i tried with many trousers and never had issues | 13:25 |
| Wnt | parasemic: are you wearing leather pants with pockets made of leather? :) | 13:27 |
| parasemic | Wnt: I wish I did :( | 13:28 |
| parasemic | too expensive, and maybe a bit too gay | 13:28 |
| Wnt | hehe | 13:28 |
| sharpneli | Or maybe extremely sweaty jeans? | 13:28 |
| goroboro | maybe... just maybe... | 13:28 |
| ggabriel_ | john travolta would disagr.. | 13:28 |
| ggabriel_ | oh, wait | 13:28 |
| parasemic | xd | 13:30 |
| * goroboro wonders if this IRC channel alienates too many communities... | 13:30 | |
| Jope | ? | 13:30 |
| Jope | what does that mean | 13:30 |
| parasemic | i'd go gay for travolta tho | 13:30 |
| ggabriel_ | goroboro: depends if you catch some people in the wrong day or say the wrong thing :) | 13:31 |
| goroboro | yeah... I'm not really a fan of politically correct behaviour... people should just get over themselves... especially if they hop onto IRC | 13:32 |
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| goroboro | still... | 13:32 |
| Jope | either it's totalitarian moderation or none at all | 13:32 |
| Jope | but irc tends to degenerate people | 13:33 |
| ggabriel_ | i guess any community alienates certain people | 13:33 |
| ggabriel_ | so, you wouldn't have a fanboi here | 13:33 |
| * goroboro quietly slips out of his leather trousers :P | 13:33 | |
| ggabriel_ | lol | 13:33 |
| ggabriel_ | i'm not exactly sure that leather trousers are conductive anyway | 13:33 |
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| ggabriel_ | esp as they have to be cured somehow | 13:33 |
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| parasemic | leather is really unethical tho, just think of all the cows that suffer in the winter without their skin | 13:36 |
| parasemic | im sorry im tired | 13:37 |
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| Wnt | ah, sounds like it's friday :) | 13:37 |
| * Stskeeps glares | 13:37 | |
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| louisdk | Does anyone know why the Jolla phone as no hostname by default? | 14:21 |
| pp_ | having one just complicates things? | 14:22 |
| clau2 | parasemic, https://together.jolla.com/question/8239/bug-volume-adjustment-works-while-phone-is-locked-independent-of-any-application/ | 14:23 |
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| parasemic | clau2, that's what im talking about when i say i dont give a fuck abotu t.j.c anymore | 14:27 |
| parasemic | 22 upvotes even if its a really annoying bug/feature | 14:28 |
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| clau2 | I have no idea what you mean :) | 14:28 |
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| parasemic | nobody gives a single fuck about bugreports there | 14:28 |
| ggabriel_ | 22 votes is pretty good | 14:28 |
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| clau2 | well, that's a 'special' bugreport, since some people actually like it. | 14:29 |
| Jope | parasemic, what kind of fucks are you expecting? | 14:29 |
| ggabriel_ | \o/ https://together.jolla.com/questions/scope:all/sort:age-desc/tags:mar14/page:1/ | 14:29 |
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| kaltsi | clau2: maybe tag it with 'bug' too | 14:29 |
| Jope | jolla people read it and consider the bug reports there when working on the next release | 14:30 |
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| clau2 | but, I totally agree that TJC has served its purpose and should be replaced by something more professional. | 14:30 |
| ggabriel_ | only 8 tho, i bet there are more | 14:30 |
| parasemic | no answer and a few comments even if its been posted jan 1st | 14:30 |
| clau2 | I'd like to see some real bug tracking, where I can monitor the progress too. | 14:30 |
| ggabriel_ | lol? | 14:30 |
| ggabriel_ | who does that anyway? | 14:30 |
| ggabriel_ | where's apple's bug tracker? | 14:30 |
| Jope | where's the nokia one? | 14:30 |
| Jope | oh yes, there was one, it was a black hole | 14:30 |
| Jope | no-one liked that | 14:30 |
| ggabriel_ | and the google one? oh, right, google is perfect | 14:31 |
| ggabriel_ | tjc isn't perfect, but it's much better than, well, anything else out there offered to mobile phone customers | 14:31 |
| Jope | public bug trackers are really problematic if you can't open up the entire bug db | 14:31 |
| parasemic | well, so what is not apple nor nokia have one? jolla can still have one, and absolutely should | 14:31 |
| Jope | tjc is a nice middle ground. sorry if your particular bug hasn't attracted jolla comments | 14:31 |
| pp_ | rhel/fedora sort of work | 14:32 |
| ggabriel_ | we have tjc for now | 14:32 |
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| ggabriel_ | pp_: where is the rhel/fedora phone? | 14:32 |
| pp_ | private/public bugzilla | 14:32 |
| pp_ | not phone | 14:32 |
| parasemic | also, that wasnt even the problem, but the fact that you can basically go straight back to app with volume rocker in certain situations | 14:32 |
| ggabriel_ | we do understand the difference between commercial and open source software, right? | 14:32 |
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| Jope | and being tainted by the chipset vendor's nda etc? | 14:32 |
| ggabriel_ | i mean the difference between a bug tracker hosted by an open source project and whatever a private company does | 14:33 |
| ggabriel_ | and i'm sure it'll get better anyway | 14:33 |
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| pp_ | (I'd guess setting up such a bugzilla is non-trivial and if bugzilla isn't used internally, pointless) | 14:34 |
| clau2 | ggabriel_, don't be such an apologist. | 14:34 |
| ggabriel_ | i'm not apologising | 14:34 |
| clau2 | the thing is, TJC is pretty much useless now. | 14:34 |
| ggabriel_ | just stating what i think | 14:34 |
| clau2 | 4k reports. | 14:34 |
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| ggabriel_ | well, i disagree | 14:34 |
| Acce | setting up a bug tracker is non-trivial.. keeping it clean & useful is a tedious task | 14:34 |
| ggabriel_ | there is plenty of useful info there | 14:34 |
| ggabriel_ | but *shrug* | 14:35 |
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| ggabriel_ | if it doesn't work fo ryou, then don't use it | 14:35 |
| ggabriel_ | my counter argument is that what does the competition have to offer? | 14:35 |
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| clau2 | ah, so because there is no better, we should stfu. right? | 14:35 |
| ggabriel_ | no, you open a question (like there are already) to enhance tjc | 14:35 |
| clau2 | by this standards we might still be living in caves. | 14:35 |
| Jope | imo people should be always allowed to give constructive feedback | 14:36 |
| Jope | so definitely gripe away | 14:36 |
| clau2 | the thing is, most people are disappointed by how jolla gives feedback on tjc. | 14:36 |
| Acce | people are already allowed to give constructive feedback | 14:36 |
| clau2 | and it's understandable. I mean just reading 4k issues requires a large amount of time. | 14:36 |
| Jope | clau2 most people .. are you generalising based on your opinion? | 14:36 |
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| Acce | it seems to me, however, that instead of giving constructive feedback, it's mostly "this is not good enough! give us a bugtracker!" | 14:36 |
| Jope | but yeah, any public bug solution is like drinking from a fire hose | 14:37 |
| Jope | jolla doesn't have all that many ppl working for it | 14:37 |
| Jope | so it is a biiiiig funnel | 14:37 |
| Jope | perhaps that just puts the problem into perspective | 14:37 |
| clau2 | but there's an internal bug tracker, I hope. | 14:37 |
| Jope | a big funnel with a straw in the end :-) | 14:37 |
| Jope | clau2 naturally | 14:37 |
| Wnt | ggabriel_: seems that someone is actively adding stuff to the mar14 tag :) | 14:37 |
| clau2 | or do people just keeps sticky notes about bugs? :) | 14:37 |
| ggabriel_ | Wnt: \o/ | 14:38 |
| clau2 | nice | 14:38 |
| Yaniel | "most people are disappointed by how jolla gives feedback on tjc." as in? | 14:38 |
| Yaniel | too vague? not enough? | 14:38 |
| Jope | clau2 but opening up the internal bug tracker is not possible due to various closed source components and related things | 14:38 |
| clau2 | not enough, IMO | 14:38 |
| Jope | and having a second bugzilla that mirrors the private one .. no way .. | 14:38 |
| clau2 | ok, I can understand that | 14:38 |
| Jope | that's why I said tjc is the happy middle ground | 14:38 |
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| Jope | or unhappy in your case :-) | 14:39 |
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| Yaniel | I do agree it would be awesome if issues got tagged as "worked_on" "eta_1.0.4.5" | 14:40 |
| Yaniel | by jolla | 14:40 |
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| AL13N_work | there has been such suggestions | 14:40 |
| clau2 | that would be great | 14:40 |
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| AL13N_work | eta tags sound non-productive though | 14:41 |
| AL13N_work | but "workedon" next to "roadmap" | 14:41 |
| Yaniel | that would at least be close to some sort of roadmap | 14:41 |
| Yaniel | which many people have been asking for | 14:41 |
| AL13N_work | would be nice | 14:41 |
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| pp_ | https://together.jolla.com/question/21766/introduce-a-new-tag-for-questions-tagged-with-bug-that-have-been-taken-into-work/ etc. :-) | 14:41 |
| AL13N_work | there is a roadmap tag | 14:41 |
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| Yaniel | well eta is not necessary since things are tagged to releases more or less actively | 14:42 |
| AL13N_work | workedon would be better with features and not bugs | 14:42 |
| Yaniel | would be nice to have some idea of what sort of schedule an issue is put on though | 14:43 |
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| Yaniel | maybe some kind of priority tag/setting | 14:44 |
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| Yaniel | hm a priority attribute with "suggested priority" and "jolla's priority" | 14:45 |
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| AL13N_work | Yaniel: the problem with most of these things is that someone needs to consequently manage this | 14:47 |
| AL13N_work | and it's someone that cannot fix issues during the time spent to do this | 14:47 |
| AL13N_work | so, i'm just gonna trust them that it eventually gets fixed | 14:47 |
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| Yaniel | yep | 14:49 |
| Yaniel | fortunately known sailors have at least been commenting on issues that they are working on them | 14:49 |
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| Acce | the thing is, do we want the sailors to be commenting that they're working on the features, or do we want them to work on the features :p | 14:51 |
| Jope | AL13N_work hits the nail on the head, not enough manpower to manage it. | 14:51 |
| Acce | if they have money, they could hire someone to do the commenting for them, of course | 14:51 |
| clau2 | well, if a bug gets to a developer via tjc, I guess the effort to add a tag on it is not that high | 14:52 |
| clau2 | there's no need for an explanation, or anything that requires more than a few seconds. | 14:53 |
| clau2 | but I'm guessing it's already done, at least partly. | 14:53 |
| Yaniel | with comments or tags does not matter per se | 14:53 |
| Yaniel | but tags are much easier to search for | 14:53 |
| Yaniel | and then there is the issue of duplicates | 14:53 |
| clau2 | for instance, this: https://together.jolla.com/question/500/bug-e-mail-synchronization-does-not-work-as-configured/ --- has been tagged mar14 | 14:53 |
| Yaniel | which I hope the community will actively take care of | 14:54 |
| clau2 | the community seems to be doing a nice job in closing duplicates though | 14:54 |
| clau2 | yep | 14:54 |
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| VDVsx | clau2, it sounds easy, but just the amount of effort to track the things down in the first place, i.e know that bug XY has a t.j.c entry | 14:57 |
| Yaniel | so do we agree that if jolla tagged issues as workedon or with releases and the community highlights new issues (voting) and keeps duplicates away we have a good start? | 14:58 |
| VDVsx | personal opinion, t.j.c sucks for bugs :P | 14:59 |
| * VDVsx hides and runs | 14:59 | |
| Jope | hehe | 14:59 |
| clau2 | :) | 14:59 |
| suy | VDVsx: +1 :) | 14:59 |
| VDVsx | however is good for ideas and brainstorming | 15:00 |
| veskuh | VDVsx, well, I like it. Has been quite useful for finding new issues and I think many users have gotten good advice from other users and us. | 15:00 |
| veskuh | Its been far better experience than I had with public meego bugzilla | 15:00 |
| VDVsx | veskuh, I like it too a lot, but for bugs there's better things, is difficult to track things there | 15:00 |
| veskuh | VDVsx, true | 15:01 |
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| VDVsx | things can get missed easily, that's my biggest problem, if I don't know about the issue I can't fix it :( | 15:01 |
| clau2 | just wondering, are devs constantly looking on TJC for bugs related to their code? | 15:02 |
| clau2 | or is there someone else who looks and notifies the particular devs of new problems in their components? | 15:02 |
| VDVsx | I follow everything in my areas, at least try to | 15:02 |
| veskuh | VDVsx, for browser its been quite easy. I think users have been tagging quite correctly issues, and then I follow discussions in questions that are interesting | 15:02 |
| Yaniel | email notifications for new issues tagged xxx | 15:03 |
| Yaniel | ? | 15:03 |
| clau2 | VDVsx, that's cool | 15:03 |
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| VDVsx | veskuh, I stopped trusting the tags, since many things and untagged or badly tagged, what I do, keep note of last visited topics, sort by date, visit all until I reached latest visited one :D | 15:04 |
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| Acce | is it not possible to add some kind of master tags, only taggable by mods or something | 15:06 |
| Acce | so the tags would be more useful for the devs | 15:06 |
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| VDVsx | Jolla mods are mostly devs or other company function, someone with time would have to do that | 15:08 |
| Acce | weren't you seeking community mods too? | 15:08 |
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| VDVsx | guess so | 15:10 |
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| Judy27 | Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69 | 16:03 |
| pdanek | Not much shown by Jolla on MWC. :/ | 16:03 |
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| pdanek | I expected official keyboard-half. | 16:04 |
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| cvp | hello | 16:09 |
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| cvp | kimmoli: you here ? :D | 16:10 |
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| kimmoli | cvp: now i am in | 16:22 |
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| cvp | i need maybe your help to modding the Lipo charger :D | 16:27 |
| cvp | 500mA is to less to charge 3200mAh akkus :D | 16:28 |
| cvp | it takes 8h 19min | 16:28 |
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| cvp | @kimmoli | 16:29 |
| kimmoli | yep. | 16:29 |
| kimmoli | abs max 3.2A, but i would not go that high | 16:30 |
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| kimmoli | what charger you have there? | 16:30 |
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| cvp | kimmoli: http://www.exp-tech.de/Shields/Adafruit-Micro-Lipo-USB-LiIon-LiPoly-charger-v1.html | 16:37 |
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| * kimmoli takes a look | 16:38 | |
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| cvp | thx | 16:42 |
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| kimmoli | it is rated to 500mA,,, but maybe you can test a little higher current by changing this resistor to 1k https://www.dropbox.com/s/q9v7iyjqmit3jg2/microlipo.jpg | 16:50 |
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| kimmoli | does it get warm now? | 16:50 |
| cvp | minimal | 16:51 |
| cvp | more then less the step-up regulator :D | 16:51 |
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| cvp | kimmoli: if its needit, i have two pcd´s here :) | 17:06 |
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| cvp | hmm but is it normal, that the batterie self is cold ? | 17:07 |
| kimmoli | those you cant connect in parallel . i think the control logic does not work. | 17:07 |
| kimmoli | ues | 17:07 |
| cvp | ? | 17:07 |
| kimmoli | yes it is normal that the battery is cool. (if you charge it 500mA | 17:07 |
| cvp | kk | 17:07 |
| kimmoli | change that resistor. should increase current to about 700mA | 17:08 |
| cvp | ok , than it it not a option if the control logic will not work | 17:08 |
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| kimmoli | you should still be able to charge from a usb port.... | 17:10 |
| cvp | yeah | 17:10 |
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| cvp | but 1A will not work or ? :D | 17:11 |
| cvp | like doubble | 17:11 |
| kimmoli | i dont know. specs stop to 2k prog resisitor / 500mA current. | 17:11 |
| kimmoli | extrapolating , 1k should give about 700mA, if it even works ... | 17:12 |
| cvp | hmm | 17:13 |
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| inffy | anyone else have problems with the Jolla app store? | 17:47 |
| inffy | i can't install anything from there | 17:47 |
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| phdeswer | inffy: check if your time is correct. Make sure automatic time is turned on in settings. It behaves a bit weirdly sometimes when there is a time offset | 17:49 |
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| inffy | no problems there :( | 17:50 |
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| Mandy20 | Here some videos. I hope you like them! http://bit.do/my_videos69 | 18:03 |
| mikma | thanks | 18:03 |
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| matoking | Anyone had luck with getting Google Play to work? | 19:04 |
| matoking | I managed to install it, but when I try to install an app I bought it crashes | 19:04 |
| matoking | Which is a shame because the demo version of the app which I got from Aptoide worked perfectly fine :/ | 19:04 |
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| tbr | matoking: do other apps install through play? | 19:06 |
| Raim | non-paid apps should work, it's a known problem when downloading paid apps on Play Store | 19:07 |
| matoking | @tbr Hold on I'll try | 19:07 |
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| matoking | @Raim Dang, I really wanted that :/ | 19:07 |
| Raim | there is a workaround by copying the temporary file | 19:07 |
| matoking | @Raim Probably the .apk file it downloads? | 19:07 |
| Raim | matoking: when it crashed, rename the latest /data/app-private/vmdl*.tmp to foo.apk somewhere else, then use 'apkd-install foo.apk' | 19:08 |
| matoking | Great | 19:08 |
| matoking | Hopefully the license check works | 19:08 |
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| matoking | Yeah I'm out of luck | 19:19 |
| matoking | It complains that I haven't bought the app when I have bought it | 19:19 |
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| matoking | I would probably install a cracked version of it but Myriad Alien doesn't run modified apk's | 19:20 |
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| eye_a | jolla )0lla joh | 19:26 |
| eye_a | how are you all | 19:26 |
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| szopin | hello | 19:28 |
| szopin | in recovery shell, how can one mount main partition? | 19:29 |
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| szopin | need to restore build.prop in /system :) | 19:30 |
| szopin | mount /dev/mmcblk0p28 worked I think | 19:36 |
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| szopin | except home is empty :/ | 19:37 |
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| Sailorrr_ | ! | 19:58 |
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| szopin | is it possible to mount home dir in recovery shell? | 20:01 |
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| Raim | szopin: the home directory is in a different btrfs subvolume | 20:05 |
| szopin | so not possible? | 20:05 |
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| Raim | szopin: I am not entirely sure, but I think it would be something along the lines of mount -t btrfs -o subvol=@home /dev/mmcblk0p28 /foo/targetdir | 20:06 |
| szopin | time to relearn ed, as nano expects libcurses :D | 20:06 |
| szopin | could someone post their build.prop from /system? | 20:06 |
| Raim | running btrfs subvolume list / | 20:06 |
| Raim | err, running 'btrfs subvolume list /targetroot' should give you the name | 20:06 |
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| szopin | / is not a subvolume | 20:09 |
| szopin | oh... | 20:09 |
| szopin | error accessing targetroot | 20:10 |
| Raim | wherever you mounted it | 20:10 |
| szopin | lol | 20:10 |
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| szopin | mount -t btrfs -o subvol=@home /dev/mmcblk0p28 ... worked! TYVM!!! | 20:12 |
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| szopin | :( and it still doesn't boot... | 20:15 |
| szopin | can't believe fake Nokia X build.prop in /opt/alien/system is causing this | 20:16 |
| Raim | szopin: this is my build.prop, hope that helps: http://pastie.org/8813109 | 20:16 |
| slate | szopin: why you cant believe that? | 20:16 |
| szopin | Thanks Raim, restored the one in /system, but looks like the one in /opt/alien/system is also causing boot issues (or it was the culprit all along) | 20:17 |
| Raim | szopin: ah, wait, this is /system/build.prop, were you after /opt/alien/system/build.prop? they seem different... | 20:17 |
| szopin | with access to home should be able to restore it | 20:17 |
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| szopin | they are... got both backed up luckily... hopefully booting with wrong build.prop doesn't cause irreversible dmg | 20:17 |
| szopin | slate: as it would be part of alien dalvik, not the core os | 20:18 |
| szopin | no idea why it would break sailfish | 20:18 |
| slate | I heard messing with dalvik-libraries will cause bootloop. | 20:18 |
| slate | why not build.prop then | 20:19 |
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| szopin | oh... well, bit surprised | 20:19 |
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| szopin | since it is an app you install after getting jolla in your hands (or not) expected it to not be so tied in | 20:19 |
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| szopin | wow... still doesn't boot | 20:25 |
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| szopin | btrfs recovery did not help either... ;( | 20:50 |
| szopin | getting worried | 20:50 |
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| Stskeeps | szopin: 1.0.3.8? | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | there | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | 's a shell prompt, but, consider enabling journal | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | bb | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | l | 20:57 |
| szopin | yeah | 20:57 |
| szopin | thx stskeeps will try to catch you later, afk for a while | 20:58 |
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| shanttu | damn, i wish this worked on jolla's browser http://www.techdrivein.com/2014/02/linux-remote-control.html | 21:07 |
| tbr | why shouldn't it? | 21:08 |
| matoking | I'm having a problem with a paid Android app, the license check appears to think that I haven't bought the app | 21:10 |
| shanttu | opened browser but nothing happens when clicking "add server" | 21:10 |
| matoking | Bought it from Google Play and while the installation requires a workaround, it fails when I start the application | 21:10 |
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| shanttu | too much html5? | 21:11 |
| SpeedEvil | If you're within the 15 minute window - refund it | 21:11 |
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| matoking | @SpeedEvil It already passed while I tried out some of the workarounds | 21:12 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 21:13 |
| matoking | I tried the demo version of the app I found from Aptoide and because it worked really well and I wanted it, I bought it from the only place where it could be bought from, Google Play | 21:13 |
| matoking | Yeah, so I'm getting screwed over by DRM | 21:13 |
| matoking | Ideally I would probably install a cracked version of the app because I already paid for it | 21:14 |
| matoking | But Myriad Alien apparently doesn't let you start modified Android applications | 21:14 |
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| Acce | ooh.. my phone went into somekind of "eventlock" | 21:27 |
| Acce | I can't get away from the event screen | 21:27 |
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| Acce | actually gestures stopped working... oh well | 21:29 |
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| pdanek | Is there any news about keyboard half that I may have missed? Except the one from dirklv | 21:30 |
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| Eztran | pdanek: not really, no. | 21:31 |
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| pdanek | Eztran: :/ | 21:32 |
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| pdanek | Is there any hope still? | 21:32 |
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| Acce | when I try to side swipe I get Feb 28 23:32:51 localhost lipstick[15508]: [W] unknown:44 - qrc:/qml/ConnectionStatusIndicator.qml:44: TypeError: Cannot read property 'state' of null | 21:33 |
| GentSir | pdanek: A functional proof of concept is a lot of hope in itself | 21:33 |
| Acce | wonder if that says anything to someone | 21:33 |
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| M4rtinK | for anyone not yet asleep: modRana has just been published to OpenRepos ! :D https://openrepos.net/content/martink/modrana-0 | 23:25 |
| M4rtinK | (modRana is a flexible GPS navigation system) | 23:25 |
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